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#Post#: 993--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Mett Gaming
Date: November 28, 2020, 3:12 pm
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I just had a wonderful experience...
4h of streaming 0% zerg winrate. Even back in the firebat/turtle
meta it wasn't that bad. T2 marines are broken with the nerfed
tar roaches and their increased shatter dmg. Going A2 as zerg is
just pointless and you tend to die before you can get to any
higher tier. Infestors are great and all, but 30 Vets just melt
big spines faster than you can heal them. Either Vets need a
nerf or zerg needs another option in midgame. 5Vets can
literally hold a full supply of roaches ???
@Speed I might be a mid tier zerg but I can't think of anything
I could have done differently to win. Yes, bruta rush. Also no.
@WMaster We have now reached a situation where you either go
terran or you lose in lobbies with 4or more competent players.
That feels wrong. In 3.x as zerg against 3 competent terrans it
at least felt like you had a fighting chance. Now all terrans
need to do is go up to vets and if they don't accidently kill
themselves they win.
Here's the vod:
HTML https://www.twitch.tv/videos/818689838
Zerg Games: 56 mins; 2:50 h; 3:17 h
Here's the link to my discord:
HTML https://discord.gg/JUkuUU3
We all agree that zerg is too weak in the midgame. Also a good
place to get different input than that from the hexnabs.
At this point the game is pretty much unplayable when streaming,
as the outcome of each game is predetermined. (terran wins
unless somehow no one pushes and even then turtle into ion seems
to just win @1:15 h)
#Post#: 995--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 28, 2020, 3:20 pm
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--- Quote from: Mett Gaming link ---
>
> I just had a wonderful experience...
> 4h of streaming 0% zerg winrate. Even back in the
firebat/turtle meta it wasn't that bad. T2 marines are broken
with the nerfed tar roaches and their increased shatter dmg.
Going A2 as zerg is just pointless and you tend to die before
you can get to any higher tier. Infestors are great and all,
but 30 Vets just melt big spines faster than you can heal them.
Either Vets need a nerf or zerg needs another option in midgame.
5Vets can literally hold a full supply of roaches ???
>
> @Speed I might be a mid tier zerg but I can't think of
anything I could have done differently to win. Yes, bruta rush.
Also no.
> @WMaster We have now reached a situation where you either go
terran or you lose in lobbies with 4or more competent players.
That feels wrong. In 3.x as zerg against 3 competent terrans it
at least felt like you had a fighting chance. Now all terrans
need to do is go up to vets and if they don't accidently kill
themselves they win.
>
> Here's the vod:
HTML https://www.twitch.tv/videos/818689838
> Zerg Games: 56 mins; 2:50 h; 3:17 h
> Here's the link to my discord:
HTML https://discord.gg/JUkuUU3
> We all agree that zerg is too weak in the midgame. Also a good
place to get different input than that from the hexnabs.
>
> At this point the game is pretty much unplayable when
streaming, as the outcome of each game is predetermined. (terran
wins unless somehow no one pushes and even then turtle into ion
seems to just win @1:15 h)
>
--- End Quote ---
funny part is there are still people who after seeing it (or
quite literaly playing those games) belive that current patch is
better than last one
weird how for some reason said person didnt want to go zerg and
demonstrate how it supposed to be done
#Post#: 996--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 3:30 pm
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I'm surprised Mett's zerg had a win rate higher than 0% in last
patch, or am I getting this wrong?
#Post#: 997--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 3:49 pm
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I think even old vet would be kinda fine, the tar rush being
imba and now not anymore is the bigger issue ^^.
Though the way shatter works with fracture damage, that helps a
lot... in old patch this would mean rush deflective, which was
kinda viable last patch, but really really expensive and not
very good before you'd have both pieces.
I will look at the games after asus rog / tomorrow, but I expect
to see some low eco BS, that unlike Adam's style doesn't really
push back terrans, so it won't surprise me when zerg just lose
midgame xD
Yes terran is OP, meanwhile I have people complaining on zerg
hex empire (discord) that terran cannot win anymore x) (well,
it's mostly 1 guy, but still...)
Terran has always been OP, in every version of the game, to
balance out noobs. How exactly did you win 4 good terrans in old
patch? Don't really see how that happened.
I'm glad I lose zerg games rather fast now, losing to some idiot
that just masses bats at 25min / late game ion was the dumbest
shit ever lol. I'm sure there is adjustments that can be made
(zerg buffs, terran nerfs), but certainly not in favour of the
style of play adam and mett have been showing last patch (and
probably do this patch, too). I wonder, Adam, are you offended
if I say you are similar to Mett? Or do you think you are far
beyond him skill wise? x)
#Post#: 998--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 28, 2020, 4:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> [quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=99.msg993#msg993
date=1606597959][...]
--- End Quote ---
funny part is there are still people who after seeing it (or
quite literaly playing those games) belive that current patch is
better than last one
weird how for some reason said person didnt want to go zerg and
demonstrate how it supposed to be done
[/quote]
That people is me.
You are one of these guys that is complaining about 4.x because
all your lovely sit back strats are gone now. Let's rip all your
complaints one by one.
"the chemplant is gone how to carry now?"
Zerg Hex is a Teamgame and you are not supposed to win by
yourself. It would need an exceptional bad zerg to make that
happen.
The possibility 3.x gave you to do so with chemplantbased
builds, was a huge design flaw.
"but there are so much randoms in public lobbies that don't know
how to open gate"
yes and you can leave the game before 2:15 without any penalty
"zerg has no chance anymore if terrans arent all fulltards"
Yes 6 good terran win vs 2 good zerg in 100% of the cases. 4
good terrans win in 90% of the cases. 3 good terrans or less can
make it work.
The key to survive as Zerg is to focus on Strikes for your eco
and infestors for defense. If you arent capable of hitting the
transfuses good terrans will kill you. No issue with that. 6
people having fun > 2 people having fun. it is just like massing
roach ravs is no nobrainer win by just hoarding units anymore.
Terran has valid counter now. We can argue if shatter is
overtuned (which it is in my opinion
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com/balance-discussion/veteranshatter/)<br
/>but overall it would be a designflaw if a midgame Zerg units
that requires Armor 2 can more reliable win than Armor 5 Units
since it requires way more time to survive until.
"terran and zerg only have one strategy now"
while this is partially true, the game is not about a dedicated
build but the execution of what you are doing. if you want
diverse builds and macrostrats why you dont try ladder?
The strategy for terran is to kill zerg hive asap and zergs goal
is to survive until lategame happens. you have to transfuse to
reach that goal now instead of just massing tar roaches. i am
sorry that zerg requires now more skill than you are able to
pull off.
"Veterans are broken and defend anything until brutas appear"
yes. nerf shatter please.
"but firebats and chems gave the game so much more diversity"
yes and no. while yes it offered "different paths" to go for
that was never the goal of the game. the yard offers you
defensive and economic advantages but the maingoal as terran is
to kill the zerg. if there is a way to play the game that
rewards you more with going the eco path than going the
aggressive one it is simple bad balance and/or gamedesign. both
parts need to complement each other, but priority one, two and
three is to kill zergbuildings to hurt zergs eco. everythings
that keeps terrans to do so needs to get rid off. The chemplant
and firebats offered terran a lowapm way to unjustified win
games while ignoring all the things that make zerg hex great.
Straight goal, extensive skill ceiling, short games (it is an
arcade game)
the Diversity come with the execution and what zerg is doing. if
you are bored and still have apm to spare than you should try a
strategy (variation tho) for the top of the line terrans. go
fast T3 tankpush against ecofuse. it is by no means
one-dimensional. you can adapt to eveything zerg does in a
dedicated way. It is just not needed since enough marines achive
the same without the need for all the apm you dont have.
"but zerg dies before A5 happens"
hit your transfuses
"but i like the long games"
IF terran can have a long game zerg missplayed and i dont see a
reason why terrans should be allowed to BM zerg in that case.
just go up that fkn ramp.
if you want to play long games try civilization. matches there
easily last 12 hours and you can eco up there as much as you
want without ruining game.
Chemabusers like you almost killed the game by your "strats". it
is very frustating when you die to zerg because you have to take
all the beatings when you are aggressive and your mates sit back
get cows, get chem, get whatever for 20 minutes atleast. in fact
the abusers like you dictated the pace of the game. gigabig
designflaw.
maybe i edit more when i see one of your random complaints in
discord "meh meh...."
#Post#: 999--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: ZergTriumph
Date: November 28, 2020, 4:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The new patch is definitely an improvement because it eliminates
BS terran strats (turtle and FB), but it has also made more
apparent the inherent imbalance in the game: zerg cannot win
against 4 good terrans (4 terrans who aggressively push with T1
and T2 marines).
Which is why there should be an alternate mode of the game where
zerg is substantially buffed so that it has a chance against
even 6 good terrans.
Most SC2 players are looking for balance. If they see that a
game is inherently imbalanced, they will simply play something
else.
#Post#: 1000--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 28, 2020, 4:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ZergTriumph link ---
>
> The new patch is definitely an improvement because it
eliminates BS terran strats (turtle and FB), but it has also
made more apparent the inherent imbalance in the game: zerg
cannot win against 4 good terrans (4 terrans who aggressively
push with T1 and T2 marines).
>
> Which is why there should be an alternate mode of the game
where zerg is substantially buffed so that it has a chance
against even 6 good terrans.
>
> Most SC2 players are looking for balance. If they see that a
game is inherently imbalanced, they will simply play something
else.
>
--- End Quote ---
That was actually Zerg Square for quite some time, but honestly
after chemremove Square is the noobmode now. haha sad but true.
#Post#: 1003--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 28, 2020, 5:41 pm
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I actually still think that Terrans are way too strong x)
But i am afraid to ask for more Zerg up/Terran nerf.
In most of the games i see, the Terrans are so bad that they
don't even know how to expand or push.
But yeah, Terrans are still too strong :p
However, for them to be really strong, you need to play well so
it's not a big deal.
I think right now the game is close to be perfectly balanced for
a 4V2 which is the goal of Wmaster so i think its fine.
A pro mode with stronger Zergs would be awesome tho^^
this patch really feels nice :)
#Post#: 1004--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 5:58 pm
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Explain please. 1.1k eco and you get 1 attack up (500minerals,
nearly 30s of your income), just so you can hit a yard wall a
bit harder, hoping it will break because terran is afk? x)
I'm surprised the wall even took damage since it now has 2
armor, instead of 1.
Yeah, roaches suck if you have no income x) Everything sucks
without income. The point of zerg is to get as much income as
possible before addressing terrans aggression, not kinda
randomly upgrading all spawner's capacity at 7minutes (that shit
isn't free??). Yeah I said zerg can kinda upgrade some spawners
now, but that wasn't what I meant x)
Straight brutalisk rush is hard if terrans don't afk / are very
bad, but I pulled some ultra rushes that are kinda easy to
transition into brutalisks before. I've not gotten around to
trying primals^^.
As a rule of thumb, though game situation might demand different
timings; 2.5k each = primals, 3.5k each = ultras, 4.5k each =
brutas for roaches I'm not sure.... maybe it's a unit that
should be skipped^^ I thought it was going to be really good,
but it's not really an early game unit, it needs its upgrades
and those are quite expensive. I'm thinking making 4 hydras
against terrans like adam that you know will be really
aggressive / terrans that seem like they will be very aggressive
could be a good play, assuming you have the control needed for
it (after all I've only seen a 1v1 master player use this
strategy, but it was kinda common back in the day). I should
really try making 3 hydras at 8 min... even if not necessarry, I
bet it's tons of fun poking at terrans who try to push x)
Does T1 need a nerf? Possibly, but it's only really scary in the
hands of a good player. Having looked at your terran beginner
guide that is a 2 gas 5 minute armory build (lolwhut), I'm
feeling confident in saying that I'm not really scared of that
kind of T1 play and with a nerf it's as strong as AFKing xD I
really hope in the 9 months that passed from that guide video
you improved a lot lol, because imo that video just taught
people how to fail (no offense, it is what it is). I'm always
happy to see a 5min armory as zerg... I know the terran just
delayed himself by a lot. The same goes for seeing early yard.
So yeah what can I say... pretty sure you could have made it to
primals with more eco oriented build, but not sure if primals
help you all that much vs. T2 (at least 3 armor is perfect to
negate shatter damage). I expected a low eco zerg, it was more
than expected, it wasn't even *that* far away to offer some good
options vs. the terrans you faced.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YXUtp2FXNbK_AL1MndnUtkYlsOrWG1Tx/view?usp=sharing<br
/>A game I played pretty poorly, and technically it's a lost
game,
too. Maybe you can learn something off of it (especially how to
lose big spine on 1st attack, really proud of that xd)
#Post#: 1006--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 28, 2020, 6:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
> [...]
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YXUtp2FXNbK_AL1MndnUtkYlsOrWG1Tx/view?usp=sharing<br
/>[...]
--- End Quote ---
how to play zerg.
Micro on point, early strikeeco, good spawnerpositioning,
absolutly gamewinning transfuses, great decissionmaking.
literally this replay is kind of a goldensample for any
zergguide. the part when smith took your bigspine and you were
forced into a sub armor 5 game is absolutly brilliant to
demonstrate how to handle aggressive terrans and is totally in
line with my guide. for safetyreason get 2-3 more infestors next
time, your mate was out of transfuses like twice and you got
punished. but nobody is perfect. must see replay if you wanna
step up the zerg "tierladder" in Zerg hex. 10/10.
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