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#Post#: 965--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 5:06 am
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--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
>
> but u are aware that no one wants old fbs(aka 10 armor not
taking any dmg from anything) back right?
>
--- End Quote ---
There have been requests (by a few) to add old firebat back, and
requests (by quite a few more) to add the old firebat back in a
(slightly) nerfed way, sometimes as little as -2 armor, which
especially regarding the doom push deathball changes very
little.
#Post#: 966--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Hecari
Date: November 28, 2020, 5:26 am
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As yet another side note, I actually enjoy long games. There is
nothing inherently wrong with longer games.
#Post#: 968--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Statistics
Date: November 28, 2020, 5:52 am
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--- Quote from: Hecari link ---
>
> As yet another side note, I actually enjoy long games. There
is nothing inherently wrong with longer games.
>
--- End Quote ---
There is nothing wrong with long games.
There is, however, something wrong with a long game which is 90%
afking. Which is what almost every single long game last patch
boiled down to.
Look at Melee, or any other popular arcade map. The number of
decisions/micro you have to make is always either relatively
flat or goes up linearly with the game's duration. This was not
really the case with Zerg Hex.
Ion bunkering in your base with chemplants is extremely
noninteractive. If you want to play tower defense, go play tower
defense.
I understand that people like playing defensively and wiping out
attack waves. The simple fact of the matter is that those types
of games have been already done much better on the arcade. Go
try some of them if that's what you like :)
I think there is room, in the future, to expand late game tech
options for terrans, but it should always be PROACTIVE and
require map/active control to achieve. Sitting AFK in base
autocasting upgrades for 15 minutes does none of that.
#Post#: 969--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 5:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hecari link ---
>
> As yet another side note, I actually enjoy long games. There
is nothing inherently wrong with longer games.
>
--- End Quote ---
You ever played zerg vs. terran with high walls? You literally
need to eco for 10 (easily 15-20 and more sometimes) minutes
straight after having played an economic style for the largest
part of the game to reach income sufficient enough to max
attacks and get torralisks and omegas. It's the most boring
thing ever. Even the early game is boring, terrans don't
pressure (while you can lose the game to pressure, that makes it
interesting lol). I played a few bunker troll games, I'll go
ahead and share them. Don't look at what I do, look at what zerg
is doing (and sometimes saying), do you think they are enjoying
the game?
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dn-iaerIfVyBkOsGDFFCpc6oZlUVg87b/view?usp=sharing
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lnT_zgtyBMPFVETaH6lBKkUb22tedWZ9/view?usp=sharing
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ikav31D6h2awafcca-n5Pl-u3pH9UNo7/view?usp=sharing
This isn't fun for zerg at all. I'm pretty sure it's in the
games shared, Xalandere literally quits a game with 1 terran
left because I lived through 4-5 omegas.
Don't complain about the replays being long, you can fast
forward, zerg couldn't.
#Post#: 970--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 5:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Statistics link ---
>
> [quote author=Hecari link=topic=99.msg966#msg966
date=1606562801]
> As yet another side note, I actually enjoy long games. There
is nothing inherently wrong with longer games.
>
--- End Quote ---
There is nothing wrong with long games.
There is, however, something wrong with a long game which is 90%
afking. Which is what almost every single long game last patch
boiled down to.
Look at Melee, or any other popular arcade map. The number of
decisions/micro you have to make is always either relatively
flat or goes up linearly with the game's duration. This was not
really the case with Zerg Hex.
Ion bunkering in your base with chemplants is extremely
noninteractive. If you want to play tower defense, go play tower
defense.
I understand that people like playing defensively and wiping out
attack waves. The simple fact of the matter is that those types
of games have been already done much better on the arcade. Go
try some of them if that's what you like :)
I think there is room, in the future, to expand late game tech
options for terrans, but it should always be PROACTIVE and
require map/active control to achieve. Sitting AFK in base
autocasting upgrades for 15 minutes does none of that.
[/quote]
This. 100% this. Terran wins late game in this patch, if they do
enough damage. You don't (or shouldn't at least) do damage by
afking.
#Post#: 971--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Hecari
Date: November 28, 2020, 6:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
While I shamefully admit I do indeed enjoy 90% AFK turtletank
games from a twisted, strange perspective, that is not what I am
advocating for here. There is obviously a middle ground between
rushing T2 and deciding the game within 25 minutes, and the two
hour turtle games of yore.
Perhaps implicit albeit unclear in my statement is that I would
enjoy lategame to be more interesting instead of having numbers
just becoming larger, or devolving into economy simulator.
Longer games are preferable to me because of access to new tech
options and strategies, in addition to its epic scale. I do not
wish for games to be extended for the sheer purpose of extending
its duration, but rather for longer games which facilitate these
aspects I enjoy.
#Post#: 973--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 6:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hecari link ---
>
> While I shamefully admit I do indeed enjoy 90% AFK turtletank
games from a twisted, strange perspective, that is not what I am
advocating for here. There is obviously a middle ground between
rushing T2 and deciding the game within 25 minutes, and the two
hour turtle games of yore.
>
> Perhaps implicit albeit unclear in my statement is that I
would enjoy lategame to be more interesting instead of having
numbers just becoming larger, or devolving into economy
simulator. Longer games are preferable to me because of access
to new tech options and strategies, in addition to its epic
scale. I do not wish for games to be extended for the sheer
purpose of extending its duration, but rather for longer games
which facilitate these aspects I enjoy.
>
--- End Quote ---
With this I can agree and I'm sure this is possible in current
patch. The last patch was win with T1, camp + ion or firebat (or
a combination).
In current patch, if you balance between aggression and economy,
you can have a decent late game. However you must slow down the
zerg, otherwise they will overrun you. I've researched and used
T3 way earlier in this patch compared to old, in old patch it
was an upgrade you'd only get for a tank if zerg annoyed you
with spore crawlers / you maxed or at least got close to maxed
generator and wanted some elites to defend torralisks. I've also
used tanks offensively, though the game had to be quite closed
out for it (tank's purpose was to safely end the zerg). In old
patch I don't think I've ever used tanks offensively, only in
the rarest of instances (I've used italis to push more often vs.
new zergs than I used tank offensively).
#Post#: 974--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 28, 2020, 6:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> [quote author=Hecari link=topic=99.msg966#msg966
date=1606562801]
> As yet another side note, I actually enjoy long games. There
is nothing inherently wrong with longer games.
>
--- End Quote ---
You ever played zerg vs. terran with high walls? You literally
need to eco for 10 (easily 15-20 and more sometimes) minutes
straight after having played an economic style for the largest
part of the game to reach income sufficient enough to max
attacks and get torralisks and omegas. It's the most boring
thing ever. Even the early game is boring, terrans don't
pressure (while you can lose the game to pressure, that makes it
interesting lol). I played a few bunker troll games, I'll go
ahead and share them. Don't look at what I do, look at what zerg
is doing (and sometimes saying), do you think they are enjoying
the game?
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dn-iaerIfVyBkOsGDFFCpc6oZlUVg87b/view?usp=sharing
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lnT_zgtyBMPFVETaH6lBKkUb22tedWZ9/view?usp=sharing
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ikav31D6h2awafcca-n5Pl-u3pH9UNo7/view?usp=sharing
This isn't fun for zerg at all. I'm pretty sure it's in the
games shared, Xalandere literally quits a game with 1 terran
left because I lived through 4-5 omegas.
Don't complain about the replays being long, you can fast
forward, zerg couldn't.
[/quote]
so speed I am in quite good mood today so I will sacrafice
myself and see what u posted
will modify this post as I go
2:40h game
first thing first rly man? totally new zerg who starts game by
building slowling spawner near hive vs 2 positive wr terrans
(one with rly nice 28-4) and u use this game as a example? of
what?
hm ok I see he left after 7 min, still by that time both good
top terrans have upgraded gases and starts getting cow eco,
also bot zerg(or just zerg from this point) upgraded almost all
his spawners on bot, not rly "economic style"
12min - he still did nothing on top, they are free to eco as
much as they want, red has undefended upgraded side gas
16 min - zerg getting roaches, again dont see this "eco style",
16 min roach is quite normal timeing for agroo build, and again
he build them on bot while red is getting crazy with cows with
only repaers to defend
17 min - red gets italis AFTER BEING LEFT ALONE FOR ENTIRE GAME
20 min - red has 2 UPGRADAD side gases defended by REAPERS
21 min - first ravator wave goes for green who was pressured for
most of the game- why? he had nothing, if this would hit blue
then would either forced him to spam fbs like crazy or striaight
kill his enitre low ground
22 min - next target? bot mid who had converters on low ground,
2 top players still free to do whatever
24 min - literaly first time in the game red is getting ANY
attention
30 min - only 2 terrans alive,he is still getting more roach for
whatever reason while dark blue would die to 1 nest ( there is a
spot that can hit this tech lab while not being in italis range)
31 min - zerg on below 8k income while terran team did almost no
pushing, honsetly no point watching any more this game prove no
"point" it was just terrans having fun mesing around with bad
zergs
by this point there is no more point watching, this game proves
nothing other than totally new zerg is blessing for terrans and
that bot one had rly bad target priority (2 uped side gases
defended by reapers and he is busy killing dude with converters?
rly?)
so 1 game done now lets go to one called "speed meta player"
cant wait to see what is waiting there
yey after 15 min replay finally loaded... dont know why but my
sc2 rly dont like replays :(
so lets go
5 min - bot zerg still sends most of his units to oj who at this
point has 4 shocks advanced batter and is walling of 1 gas
also top zerg already has 2 hydra - nothing too serious but its
worth mentioning as it will be somehow of a eco hit
9 min - still plenty of units on oj. if they were on black
holding 3 gas would be much harder,
also tanklings on topXD
11min - like I said oj leavs black lose gas, imagine how much
slower his eco would be if he didnt have it for so long for free
so situation on 12 min - bot - 1 terran who has way more than he
should bc of zerg mistake, top - 1 terran who walled 1 gas off
from the start only now starting to figure out what 2 one is, 2
terran pushed back, and u
with nice eco but still not crazy as u had to invest in defense
lets see how it will go from there but for now I would say zerg
already could be in way better position
16 min - speed 1??? why??? all they need now is eco up
19 min - u are holding 3 gas without armory, imagine if now
instead of upgraded strikling zerg send on u 2 supply of roach +
2 ravs, ur entire eco dies
20 min u get 1 italis, not without any pressure like last game
but still zerg had quite large windom of opportunity to remove u
from the game before it happened if they only didnt waste so
much money on hydra/speed/other useless stuff and went stright
to 2,5k-3k eco roach+rav
22 min- max gen while having completely afk mate on left and
only mediocre one on mid
24 min- top zerg below 3k eco despite no push from terran
this is just like last game , completely zerg fault for allowing
it, anything from this point forward proves nothing as it is
again just good terran toying with bad zerg
#Post#: 975--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 6:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
When I said eco I talked about my zerg. Obviously the zerg that
play like you have an even harder time. Watch the full game.
Your post is totally besides the point.
#Post#: 976--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 28, 2020, 6:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> When I said eco I talked about my zerg. Obviously the zerg
that play like you have an even harder time. Watch the full
game. Your post is totally besides the point.
>
--- End Quote ---
"point" is red is a good terran player who was left alone for
24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! min, fact
that he decided to meme and go for long game instead of ending
is his choice and I see no reason why he should be denied it, if
u as zerg have a problem with it then accept that game is lost
(bc it would be if he wanted to) and just leave
as for ur game I didnt watch it yet, like I said I am on 2h40
min one for now will get to second one in a moment
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