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#Post#: 951--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: deorai037
Date: November 27, 2020, 2:37 pm
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I'm really not interested in more of your opinion about firebats
since that's already clear, I'm interested in your opinions on
adding more dimension to early game Z play.
See so one of the advantages of solo Zerg (the huge and obvious
disadvantage is the loss of an extra person to help micro) has
always been that t0 Zerg spawner upgrades are essentially 50%
cheaper because now those upgrades are shared across all Zerg
forces. I think rewarding Z for coordinating costs together
makes sense.
For this reason I'm a fan of the "toggleable packed mass" idea
Honestly, one idea that interests me is actually starting
everyone out with a little more resources from the get go. I'm
not entirely sure how to balance that out, but it might enable
more interesting Z and T decisions. For example, if T started
out with a bit more minerals, then T would maybe decide between
rushing a fast upgraded refinery or starting up early reaper
aggression, while Z could either choose between an extra head
start to eco or maybe pivot into a hard hitting early
beastling/festor low eco play.
I think that adjusting things to allow for early beastlings
might legit be an interesting way of changing up the game. Part
of the reason why Z applying early pressure is such a weak
option is because shock troopers get better when there's more
units being tossed at someone. If you don't force someone down
to 1 gas right away with pressure, then they'll probably be able
to afford a handful of shocks to laugh at any amount of pressure
you throw at them. So beastlings would hard counter shocks, but
they wouldn't be able to put as much raw pressure as t0
units....
....idk just spitballing ideas to try and make beastlings
viable.
#Post#: 952--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: ZergTriumph
Date: November 27, 2020, 2:52 pm
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Maybe lower the cost of armor 1 so zerg can get beastlings out
early.
#Post#: 953--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 27, 2020, 3:09 pm
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Beastlings are... interesting... like many things zerg has they
are almost good enough to be a nice drain / delay of push unit
for moderate cost (both tech and supply). What I like about
them, after their recent respawn time buff, if you build them at
big spine and the nearby terran has a standard forward armoy
(outranging first small spine), the spawner will have nearly no
idle time (beastling can have up to 2 units on the map, and
respawn cooldown is getting off whilst 2nd beastling is still
alive, resulting in immediate start of spawn once 1 of the 2
active ones die. Sadly, I would say the timing at which zerg can
afford it (without hurting themselves too much is ~12minutes,
which is just a little bit late vs. really good terrans. I feel
like they are almost in a good spot.
Zerg cannot, or shouldn't be able, to seriously hurt terrans
early (look at it this way,if a zerg can seriously damage a
veteran like me, then how hard can they abuse a poor beginner?).
It's all about surviving, while building economy. Roach and
primal are primarily defensive units, roach had the power to
snowball vs. all type of marines, no matter if T1, T2, or T3, it
was a numbers game, but that was just due to roach being
extremely overtuned. The first unit that can really run over
terran is the ultralisk (games used to end on ultralisk tech
once upon a time). Brutalisk is still kinda good due to T2 buff
and the popularity it created, despite being a quite inefficient
unit on paper (too supply heavy, very expensive, slow, bad
attack animation, bad attackspeed). Kinda unrelated to current
topic, but I'd love to see brutalisk model replaced with primal
ultralisk for the sake of attack animation lol.
In my opinion zerg "power" should be (further) shifted away from
early game (nerf capacity / lock it behind armor1 ), but
increased eco speed so anti T1 measures (speed 1, packed mass,
infestors, beastling, roach maybe primal) are more attainable.
1 thing zerg can do, that I've not seen anyone but Najdorf do
(but it was meta in an older patch I didn't play), make 3-4
hydras ~7-8 min. They will gain stacks (range) and you can kinda
delay T1 pushes at 11-12 min, with nest's cloud and fully grown
hydras you can be quite annoying. It's a medium investment to
get hydras early, I've never done it myself, it can only delay,
not stop T1 from happening. Having played against it twice, it's
really painful. (if done well)
I'm myself still adjusting to patch, I used a strike max (both
zerg get 30 strikes before any other spawner for most efficient
supply spending), I think opening strikes to force shocks is
still a good way to play, but maxing strikes terrans will have a
lot of energy, so it can get scary really quickly. I think I'd
cut focus on strikes after 14 (1st supply), only make 1-2 each
supply to spend all of it (2spire, 3 slowling 1 strike & 1spire
6 slowling 2 strike = 45 supply) is better.
I'm just gonna share a match, I feel like I played quite bad in
it (and you know me, I kinda like to express my frustration xD).
It's very close^^ terrans are quite aggressive, though more
focused on T2 pressure rather than T1, but maybe you can learn a
thing or 2 (just ignore how I lose my first big spine, I was
0.000001 seconds too slow on transfusing, I'm sure xd)
Yes, I'm aware that the game is a bit off standard game, 1 early
leave and 1 semi-turtle.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YXUtp2FXNbK_AL1MndnUtkYlsOrWG1Tx/view?usp=sharing<br
/>I feel like I could have done a lot better.
#Post#: 954--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 27, 2020, 3:16 pm
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--- Quote from: ZergTriumph link ---
>
> Maybe lower the cost of armor 1 so zerg can get beastlings out
early.
>
--- End Quote ---
Zerg can already do some pretty disgusting infestor rush with
current armor 1 cost (infestor used to be Armor 0, was locked
behind it because of rush).
Sadly I feel like an off-creep movement nerf for infestor is
something that should be done. Zerg can kinda feed them without
risk on a pressured terran, they kinda outrun marines that have
to stutter step to take down incoming spawner units.
It's difficult, zerg kinda needs some help, but that help must
not allow cheeses / total invincibility by noobs / low / mid
tier players.
#Post#: 955--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Hecari
Date: November 27, 2020, 5:46 pm
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I agree with the upsetting lack of strategic diversity, and I'll
be writing about that soon.
One potential thing I would like to see in the game is more
potential for spreading creep. Currently, there are precious few
reasons to build creep tumors or nests (especially nests) to
spread creep, and it would be interesting to see a creep
minigame added to Zerg Hex.
As a side note, I also enjoyed and miss sieges of turtling
Terrans with creep, nest clouds, hydras, and spores. Nowadays
it's much more efficient to simply sit back, eco, and buy a few
attack upgrades instead.
#Post#: 956--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 27, 2020, 6:05 pm
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Strategic diversity is something that is constantly brought up,
I'll just quickly say, if you give terrans 5 way to win, odds
are 1 of those is "better" than the others / is easier than all
the others or a mix of it. Guess what casual players will do?
Yeah... play the least effort & expect to win with it.
Zerg has a lot of diversity (if you know how to do it), it's
just that none of their strategies truly work vs. stacked terran
team^^. (though of course zergs will also try to stick to the
"best" least effort way to win, currently most people just
upgrade all spawners and hope terrans are bad lol)
No T1 game I play is the same. (though some are similar, of
course).
#Post#: 957--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Hecari
Date: November 27, 2020, 7:01 pm
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I do not dispute that with each additional viable strategy, more
potential imbalances are introduced. I simply think that this is
a price worth paying for it.
#Post#: 961--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 28, 2020, 3:55 am
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--- Quote from: Hecari link ---
>
> I do not dispute that with each additional viable strategy,
more potential imbalances are introduced. I simply think that
this is a price worth paying for it.
>
--- End Quote ---
that is one completely true thing- whats the point of balance
if game is dull
second thing is fact that funny enough this patch while killing
strategic diversity did nothing to help balance, if nothing else
I would say it made it even worse
now pushing terrans have even easier time rolling over zerg with
buffed vets and nerfed roaches as chem removal do nothing if
enough people push
while zerg have even easier time rolling over teams with not
enough pushing terrans or ones too slow to put push together as
vet-roach relation is irrelevant if people dont push and no chem
- no way to move into late game
so enough pushing terrans is even more problematic to deal with
while bad/new ones are even more useless and so even more
matches are decided already in lobby
but hey! at least games are faster! almost no more 1h+ ones
unless 1 side is trolling!! yea truly worthy trade off
#Post#: 962--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 28, 2020, 4:28 am
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Yep, fast games are better. I can see you are sarcastic about
that, I'm not. Long games are silly.
I've stated my opinion many times, I hope Wmaster will not add
anything that serves no purpose, doesn't add anything OP that
might make new players "useful" (assuming they can even use it
lol), because it's gonna get abused by "casuals" to solo win
games (epic logic btw, at least consider yourself a "tryhard" if
you want to solo a game). If something like old firebat is in
the game, which outshines T1 and is easier to use, I will not
bother using T1 anymore and instead abuse the "new old patch
firebat thing" (5 words to roughly describe something lmao). Why
would I invest effort when I can just use the "noob unit"? Makes
the game really boring for my (zerg) opponents tbh, my T1 is
strong (though not perfect), how insane will I be with "noob
unit"?...
#Post#: 963--------------------------------------------------
Re: First Impressions of Patch 4.0
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 28, 2020, 4:54 am
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--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> Yep, fast games are better. I can see you are sarcastic about
that, I'm not. Long games are silly.
>
> I've stated my opinion many times, I hope Wmaster will not add
anything that serves no purpose, doesn't add anything OP that
might make new players "useful" (assuming they can even use it
lol), because it's gonna get abused by "casuals" to solo win
games (epic logic btw, at least consider yourself a "tryhard" if
you want to solo a game). If something like old firebat is in
the game, which outshines T1 and is easier to use, I will not
bother using T1 anymore and instead abuse the "new old patch
firebat thing" (5 words to roughly describe something lmao). Why
would I invest effort when I can just use the "noob unit"? Makes
the game really boring for my (zerg) opponents tbh, my T1 is
strong (though not perfect), how insane will I be with "noob
unit"?...
>
--- End Quote ---
but u are aware that no one wants old fbs(aka 10 armor not
taking any dmg from anything) back right? I too wanted them
nerfed (instead of being removed as they are now)
its a lack of chem what is the problem
(and new yard aura which is total garbage)
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