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#Post#: 1452--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: blah Date: December 24, 2020, 12:08 pm
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yea excellent post.
good point re the relationship of income to supply, and of total
income, not just one player's income.
I think you could expand on how greater spires come into play. I
usually just get them when income per spire is greater than 150,
but maybe there's more to look at, like the supply factor.
This is a really complicated equation for the average person.
what about setting a limit per supply upgrade for the number of
spires that can be made? that way new players are forced to go
for an optimal build. Like how is the average or casual gamer
supposed to learn this? watch a replay and then get a pen n
paper, pull out their old math textbook or go on a reddit math
forum? optimizing it so players don't need to think can optimize
the experience for all players.
I think the way it is setup in the game can be confusing too.
The game says "spawner income info" and says adding a spawner
would give x, but really it is the number of mineral extractors
that are giving the income per spawner, and that can be
confusing as hell, especially when all of this is hidden in the
game mechanics where players cannot see. The info box doesn't
even mention the income is actually coming from the spire in
that circumstance.
What makes things worse is the practice mode has spires listed
as +50 minerals and doesn't show income generated for teamates
so trying to solo study this stuff is even harder/more
complicated.
what about just combining the zerg income so that it is shared?
or combined and then divided by two and given to each player
after a minute?
I think a lot of this comes back to zerg hex not having a strong
gameplay howto. players are left to their own devices to learn
and that affects regular players experiences.
#Post#: 1454--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: RickSanchez Date: December 24, 2020, 1:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=blah link=topic=89.msg1452#msg1452
date=1608833283]
yea excellent post.
good point re the relationship of income to supply, and of total
income, not just one player's income.
I think you could expand on how greater spires come into play. I
usually just get them when income per spire is greater than 150,
but maybe there's more to look at, like the supply factor.
This is a really complicated equation for the average person.
what about setting a limit per supply upgrade for the number of
spires that can be made? that way new players are forced to go
for an optimal build. Like how is the average or casual gamer
supposed to learn this? watch a replay and then get a pen n
paper, pull out their old math textbook or go on a reddit math
forum? optimizing it so players don't need to think can optimize
the experience for all players.
I think the way it is setup in the game can be confusing too.
The game says "spawner income info" and says adding a spawner
would give x, but really it is the number of mineral extractors
that are giving the income per spawner, and that can be
confusing as hell, especially when all of this is hidden in the
game mechanics where players cannot see. The info box doesn't
even mention the income is actually coming from the spire in
that circumstance.
What makes things worse is the practice mode has spires listed
as +50 minerals and doesn't show income generated for teamates
so trying to solo study this stuff is even harder/more
complicated.
what about just combining the zerg income so that it is shared?
or combined and then divided by two and given to each player
after a minute?
I think a lot of this comes back to zerg hex not having a strong
gameplay howto. players are left to their own devices to learn
and that affects regular players experiences.
[/quote]
limiting the amount of spires limits top of the line zergs to do
fancy team strats like 1 zerg is facing trash and is rather
building on its mates terrans and the other one focus on
overspire. the way it is seperated right now gives alot more
possibities and zerg in general has a steep learning curve.
people that want to be good need to do the homework somehow.
nowadays it is even easier with mett explaining builds sometimes
and excessive ressources in form of wiki, forum, discords and
others
#Post#: 1457--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: reh Date: December 26, 2020, 12:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=blah link=topic=89.msg1452#msg1452
date=1608833283]
I think you could expand on how greater spires come into play.
[/quote]
That is simple, they are exactly identical to 3 mineral
extractors.
They are identical in ressource costs (considering all
requirements) and they are identical in +minerals.
The only, very small and most likely negligible, difference
occurs for the time when you can start building them and when
the +income is added. With 3 mineral extractors, you can start
to build the first and second mineral extractor earlier before
you can start to upgrade into the greater variant. This may give
some seconds of an advantage, if at all.
There is also the mineral container which I did not consider for
this post. At the time the zerg can build a mineral container,
the game is most often already decided or at least the
mineral/supply distribution is not relevant anymore. In the very
few games where it is still relevant, an experienced player can
deal with it.
Just for the records, I recently had some games again where my
zerg ally focused on way too many mineral extractors. We
consequently lost. I could hardly or not keep up with terrans on
my side due to reduced income for me and the other side was lost
anyway due to nearly no additional unit spawners. In one game,
the other zerg even annoyed me to move my units up to help
there. In another game, my zerg ally wanted to lecture me that
focus on mineral extractors gives more money (I typically reset
my stats frequently which may provoke this). This costs a
tremendous amount of time of writing to argument against this in
game, even if I already know each time how the conversation
flows already. Then the other zerg complained that I do not do
upgrades (although he steals all my income). And finally, he
complained that I do not build enough mineral extractors because
obviously the higher amount of mineral extractors is the reasons
he has that a high income.
I really stopped playing for some days after such bad
experiences due to the game mechanics. The game is relaxing, but
this game mechanic with wrong incentives and misleading
intuitive understanding is totally frustrating.
#Post#: 1458--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: blah Date: December 26, 2020, 6:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=89.msg1454#msg1454
date=1608836967]
[quote author=blah link=topic=89.msg1452#msg1452
date=1608833283]
yea excellent post.
good point re the relationship of income to supply, and of total
income, not just one player's income.
I think you could expand on how greater spires come into play. I
usually just get them when income per spire is greater than 150,
but maybe there's more to look at, like the supply factor.
This is a really complicated equation for the average person.
what about setting a limit per supply upgrade for the number of
spires that can be made? that way new players are forced to go
for an optimal build. Like how is the average or casual gamer
supposed to learn this? watch a replay and then get a pen n
paper, pull out their old math textbook or go on a reddit math
forum? optimizing it so players don't need to think can optimize
the experience for all players.
I think the way it is setup in the game can be confusing too.
The game says "spawner income info" and says adding a spawner
would give x, but really it is the number of mineral extractors
that are giving the income per spawner, and that can be
confusing as hell, especially when all of this is hidden in the
game mechanics where players cannot see. The info box doesn't
even mention the income is actually coming from the spire in
that circumstance.
What makes things worse is the practice mode has spires listed
as +50 minerals and doesn't show income generated for teamates
so trying to solo study this stuff is even harder/more
complicated.
what about just combining the zerg income so that it is shared?
or combined and then divided by two and given to each player
after a minute?
I think a lot of this comes back to zerg hex not having a strong
gameplay howto. players are left to their own devices to learn
and that affects regular players experiences.
[/quote]
limiting the amount of spires limits top of the line zergs to do
fancy team strats like 1 zerg is facing trash and is rather
building on its mates terrans and the other one focus on
overspire. the way it is seperated right now gives alot more
possibities and zerg in general has a steep learning curve.
people that want to be good need to do the homework somehow.
nowadays it is even easier with mett explaining builds sometimes
and excessive ressources in form of wiki, forum, discords and
others
[/quote]
good point, what about pro and newb settings? newb settings
could streamline stuff. over n over though I think it comes down
to explaining the game mechanics a bit more. There really is
nothing in this area besides the loading screen.
#Post#: 1461--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: deorai037 Date: December 27, 2020, 7:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Actually, now that I think of it, maybe having an obnoxious (but
toggle-able) sidebar box that shows current Zerg eco (broken
down by spawner/spire contributions) might help newbie Zergs
have a clue? It could be toggled off for pros who know what
they're doing, but for newbies they might have an "ohhh that's
how eco works" moment
#Post#: 1466--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: blah Date: December 27, 2020, 1:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=deorai037 link=topic=89.msg1461#msg1461
date=1609077149]
Actually, now that I think of it, maybe having an obnoxious (but
toggle-able) sidebar box that shows current Zerg eco (broken
down by spawner/spire contributions) might help newbie Zergs
have a clue? It could be toggled off for pros who know what
they're doing, but for newbies they might have an "ohhh that's
how eco works" moment
[/quote]
sounds like a good idea. maybe even show prospective incomes, if
spires are added or spawners, or both.
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