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#Post#: 823--------------------------------------------------
For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: reh Date: November 23, 2020, 1:16 pm
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Note: This post targets casual gamers and may not be relevant
for all these pro gamers here because they anyway play perfectly
anytime (obviously).
I am a rather average casual player who typically plays random
(i.e. gets in the worst team that nobody else wants) to have
interesting games.
It happens quite often in such a situation that I play zerg
together with someone else who does not fully understand how
zerg income is generated. This can generate a very, very
frustrating situation and has wrong incentives that are unable
to fix from my side (i.e. it is a lose-lose situation for me).
To explain, let me first summarize how income is generated and
optimized in Zerg Hex.
Very roughly, [code]mineral income = #unit spawners * #mineral
spawners[/code] (I omit details that are not important for the
case)
To maximize income, one must consider a) the formula (income
spawners * mineral spawners) and b) the game mechanics that unit
spawners are shared between zerg players but mineral spawners
are not shared.
To simplify, I have ignored the (fixed) cost of spawners.
Example income calculation
Let us look at an example:
[attach=1]
Here, top player currently has 1606 income, bottom (me) has 1388
income.
Player 1 (me) building a new mineral spawner increases income
for player 1 by 79. That means 79 per 15 supply.
Player 1 (me) building a new unit spawner increases income for
player 1 by 12. That means 60 per 15 supply (with 5 x
strikelings) or about 48 per 15 supply (~4 x zerg spawner).
Therefore, it seems that adding mineral spawners provides more
income per cost.
However, adding a unit spawner also increases the income of
player 2. That means, for 15 supply, I can increase the total
zerg income by 130 (with 5 x strikelings) or about 104 per 15
supply (~4 x zerg spawner).
In conclusion, to maximize the total zerg income, I have to
consider that zerg share unit spawner counts.
What does this mean in practice? Well, let us consider 2
players, each with 5 supply upgrades (225 supply) and 3 cases:
case a) Both players invest only in mineral spawners. Total
income increases by 30*79=2370.
case b) Both players invest only in unit spawners: 2x30
strikeling spawners (2x90 supply), rest 2x34 zerg spawners
(2x34*4 supply). Makes 64 spawners for each player and (with the
above numbers) and total income increase of 2*64*(12+14)=3328.
case c) Both players build 5 mineral spawners and rest unit
spawners. Makes, per player, 30 strikeling spawners and 15 zerg
spawners or 45 unit spawners. That makes an income increase of
(2 simple ways to calculate: mineral spawners first or unit
spawners first) 10*79+90*(26+10) = 90*(26)+169*10 = 4030.
As you can see, focusing on mineral spawners for income leads to
significant lower income by already up to a factor 2 in this
rather typical example.
What casual players do
Let us look at how different kind of players behave. I see these
types of players in my games with rather casual players:
A) Players who do not know anything about how income is
generated in Zerg Hex
What happens is that they understand "Mineral Spawner provides
income -> Build a lot of mineral spawners to maximize income".
And this conclusion looks totally reasonable for them.
B) Players who have a false understanding about how income is
generated in Zerg Hex
Some more experienced players understand that (roughly) mineral
income = unit spawners * mineral spawners. They look at how much
they gain from a unit spawner and from a mineral spawner and
build mineral spawners. This conclusion looks reasonable to them
(and they even argue then that this is the right way to maximize
income). However, as shown above, one has to consider the game
mechanics that unit spawners are shared.
For the rest of this discussion, I can consider that Player B
leads to the same problems as Player A, but with a weaker
significance.
C) Others (ignored here, not relevant)
To the pain points
Why is all of this a problem?
Now here I am, a player that wants to optimize economy.
The other player builds too much mineral spawners (Player type A
or B, see above), i.e. the other player plays in a way that will
lead to less income compared to an optimal way (see example at
the beginning). What options do I have?
option a) I can build unit spawners to balance. However, I
cannot build enough unit spawners to balance 3 mineral spawner.
Even more, my income will grow less compared to the other
player. Which means I will fall further behind to balance. We
make less income than possible and I penalize myself. Lose
situation for me.
option b) I can mimic building mineral spawners. This will keep
my income balanced to the other player. However, focusing only
on mineral spawners leads to the worst total income and in
addition we have no unit spawners to stop terrans. Lose
situation for me.
option c) I blame the other person and/or try to teach them.
This sometimes works, but most often does not. Maybe they are
all more clever than I am. At least, this costs a lot of writing
and I cannot play. Lose situation for me.
option d) I leave the game. This destroys my experience.
Counterintuitively, this improves the situation for the other
zerg player. That means, they will not even stop to play like
this. Lose situation for me.
Conclusion
As you can see, all options result in a lose situation for me
and there is really nothing I can do to balance a second zerg
player that focus on mineral spawners only. In practice, this
gets even worse because focus on mineral spawners means that
terrans will get an ever increasing advantage due to less zerg
units they have to deal with (but this depends on terrans,
therefore I ignored it until here). It typically ruins the game
for me and I really hate it because there is no action for me to
get out of this issue. Now we could argue, thats life, your
problem. But I would argue that not building unit spawners is
bad enough for the zerg, creating serious disadvantages for me
due to the playstyle of the other zerg is just frustrating.
I would be very, very happy if there is an adaption that allows
me as a more experienced player to balance the playstyle of a
less experienced player here.
Unfortunately, I do not have a very good idea. One I was
thinking about that I can hijack or use parasite on mineral
spawners of my zerg ally. That means, there could be a game
mechanic that I can benefit from mineral spawners build by the
other player. The more the other player builds, the more I can
benefit. Making it a bad move for the other zerg player to focus
on mineral spawners only, but keeps me in the game while I build
unit spawners.
Maybe make mineral spawners shared instead of unit spawners?
Then I am completely fine with newcomers that focus on mineral
spawner and I do the rest.
A more elaborated approach would change the ingame mechanics
completely. But this is up to the game designer and not my
business as an average mortal player.
#Post#: 825--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: ZergTriumph Date: November 23, 2020, 1:28 pm
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Maybe there is a way to make it extremely obvious to zerg
players whether a mineral extractor or spawner would add more
income for their team:
1. A color code or highlight system: mineral extractors (or a
button on the hive/drone) glow bright gold when they are adding
more income per supply than spawners would, and flash an
annoying red when spawners would add more income.
2. Extremely simple income numbers displayed on
hive/drone/extractors: Just a bright bold number showing the
income to be gained per supply from extractors vs the income to
be gained per supply from spawners. Both should be team numbers
with per player numbers omitted. Right now there is a list of
information that, I have to admit, I did not understand until
RickSanchez explained it to me on the forum yesterday. I
imagine a lot of zerg players don't understand it either, and
would be aided by a more simplified presentation.
3. A popup alert that appears in the corner of the screen when
zerg has free supply and adding extractors would add less
economy for the team than adding spawners.
#Post#: 826--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 1:32 pm
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We need more people like you on this forum.
Just someone that explains some of the stuff going on in the
actual game, not a toxic chem hater like me or the whiny AFKs
wanting them back...
Keep doing what you do, this thread really hits a VERY important
spot of zerg mechanic, one that really doesn't help zergs to win
if they don't understand this.
You'd be surprised how many times I have to tell my premade ally
to make more spawners for eco :D (Mineral extractor / spire is
just so much more convenient than making spawners).
Part of the issue (besides not understanding the mechanic) stems
from mineral container, it's very expensive (you can make
equivalent for less money and just 1 more supply) + it requires
armor 4 (to prevent zerg from using it to eco instead of
spawners when they still need units, something you've mentioned
in this thread already). I've always liked the fact you would
get rewarded as zerg that if you had spare apm, you could make
slowlings instead of container late game, however for a newer /
less serious player that inefficiency is quite annoying.
I remember back when the test versions were around, people asked
me to buff mineral containers... at the time I considered this
unnecessarry, I liked the skill ceiling it's adding to the game.
However looking at the numbers:
500mineral for container, +20 for drone, sum 520 and on the
other side 200 mineral for 4x slowling + 80 for 4x drone, sum
280. The gap is quite huge, I guess I wouldn't mind if mineral
container was like 100 minerals cheaper. Still more efficient to
make slowling, but it doesn't make as much of a difference.
#Post#: 829--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: ZergTriumph Date: November 23, 2020, 1:40 pm
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[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=89.msg826#msg826
date=1606159965]
500mineral for container, +20 for drone, sum 520 and on the
other side 200 mineral for 4x slowling + 80 for 4x drone, sum
280. The gap is quite huge, I guess I wouldn't mind if mineral
container was like 100 minerals cheaper. Still more efficient to
make slowling, but it doesn't make as much of a difference.
[/quote]
But when zerg supply cost reaches 12,600, it balances out:
12,600/45 = 280. I guess most people start building mineral
containers before 12,600 though ;D
#Post#: 837--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: ZergTriumph Date: November 23, 2020, 2:00 pm
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Oops, mistake in my math. Mineral containers cost 240 more than
4 slowlings (520-280), so it's actually when supply costs 10,800
that mineral containers become more efficient. But especially
with the new patch most games won't ever get to that point.
#Post#: 838--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: Oayoo Date: November 23, 2020, 2:17 pm
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Really nice topic :)
#Post#: 846--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: Turb007 Date: November 23, 2020, 8:38 pm
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[quote author=reh link=topic=89.msg823#msg823 date=1606158960]
Maybe make mineral spawners shared instead of unit spawners?
[/quote]
I don't know why I haven't thought of this, I really like this
idea!
#Post#: 861--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: Oayoo Date: November 24, 2020, 7:46 am
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this isn't stupid at all :o
nice one
#Post#: 865--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: RickSanchez Date: November 24, 2020, 8:18 am
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[quote author=Turb007 link=topic=89.msg846#msg846
date=1606185491]
[quote author=reh link=topic=89.msg823#msg823 date=1606158960]
Maybe make mineral spawners shared instead of unit spawners?
[/quote]
I don't know why I haven't thought of this, I really like this
idea!
[/quote]
i want to try that, before I form a final opinion about it, but
it can be nice.
#Post#: 1233--------------------------------------------------
Re: For Casual Gamers: Adapt How Zerg Income Is Generated
By: reh Date: December 9, 2020, 7:39 pm
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I know that bumping a topic is not very nice, but I would
really, really like to see a change here.
I had again several games as zerg where the other zerg had the
opinion that either focusing solely on mineral extractors or
only look for his gain while calculating would be the best
strategy for high income.
This leads to games that are lost like after 15 to 20 min
without anything that I can do. Terrans on the side of my zerg
ally expand and grow because no units and we both have less
income as we could have with more unit spawners. A loss-loss
situation that ruins mid-game.
I also lose initiative on my side if I focus only on unit
spawners because my income practically does not increase if I
built only unit spawners and zerg ally only mineral spawners.
And still, leaving the game would only improve the situation for
the other zerg. There is nothing I can do but only get
frustrated.
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