DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Zerg Hex Forum
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Balance Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 831--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 1:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=87.msg824#msg824
date=1606159208]
I like the new patch. Zerg wins most pub games, which is as it
should be. When most new players join a game called "Zerg
something something ...", they're picturing a game with an
overpowering zerg force and a group of scrappy terrans
struggling to survive. That's how the game is now. And the
playstyle is far more intuitive for new players now: expand,
make marines and try to kill the zerg before the zerg kills you.
The elimination of chem plants eliminates turtles who let their
allies take focus while they safely build up chem plants in
their base. This makes the game less frustrating for new
players who intuitively grasp how to play but would previously
be frustrated by turtling teammates and give up.
And of course, more players will enjoy zerg now as it isn't
playing rock paper scissors vs 3 other people at the same time.
;D
[/quote]
This guy gets it. And once terrans just accept the fact they
cannot AFK anymore and play the game properly (by being
aggressive with T1, whilst not giving up on economy behind it)
and then making veterans when zerg make roaches, I'm assuming
the win rates will even out. If they aren't there is always
adjustments that can be made without adding completely new (and
most likely imbalanced) stuff. I haven't played much this patch,
I typed too much on this forum and on discord and on sc2...
Additionally I feel like I have to win every single game I play
(I did, so far), because there is that (obviously totally
baseless) idea in the back of my head, that if I am to lose a
game (which is perfectly normal and absolutely going to happen)
this forum will talk about that 1 game I lost, about nothing
else just that 1 game for like 5 days straight. This puts me in
a very uncomfortable spot, winning is no longer as easy as it
was (which is good), however the stress is definetely I could do
without x) Hopefully I will lose a game soon and nobody will
lose a word about it^^.
#Post#: 866--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Zergie Date: November 24, 2020, 8:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
When I was playing without chems in this new patch, I did get
elites sooner than usual. However I was not used to the new
timings and income which most likely affected my performance.
My opening is similar to the replay. I usually get penetrating
before overcharge and if there are strikes I will get shattering
first. But makes sense to get overcharge first if low on gas
because its cheap and offers you faster safety. However, I did
learnt to use fruit farms to get the focus instead of using
walls. Seeing the 2 ways to take down the big spines with
minimal loses was epic. I never imagined it could be done like
that. Seeing is believing ;D I was always using the bubble. I
am guessing in this patch, you don't need to build walls to
prevent your animals from getting stuck as you can build your
animals out of other farms.
I think the problem might be that players are too used to
playing with chems and relying heavily on them. For me, its
learnt from YT. Just yesterday, Mett released a video showcasing
how to win with elites and chem.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV0OM4v5KTw&t=2s
Mett does have
videos without chems but somehow the ones with chems were nicer
to watch. Especially the firebat ones because it was so easy.
Chems might make sense in a longer game whereby you invested
early at the expense of your army (and your allies. But if your
allies are new and not helping as pointed out by Iancula, its a
good option) in return for a good economy later on. Also for
players being pushed back, they can have a source of gas income.
It certainly does not have to be chems. As suggested elsewhere,
the back gas can be buffed.
Walls currently will fall to the zerg quite quickly even if you
have a good economy as you won't have the gas to level it up.
Its good for the zerg who was pressuring early and managed to
push everyone back to then be able to break everyone before ion
ends the game. I had games where I died to ion and level 30
walls.
Removing chems is a good thing to force players to learn how to
push. Of course, learning something new takes time which is why
zerg is favored now as terrans who relied on chem have to
relearn. Probably after 20 games we will all get used to the new
better method of playing. Pushing together is also more fun than
going at it solo. Probably will take some time before the
general skill level starts favoring terran again.
Currently it looks like T2 is better balanced. T1 was already
good in the past. Now what about T3? With the chem gone, terran
eco also suffers such that I don't know how to play with T3 in
this patch. Maybe lock chem behind T3 + chem upgrade. Then there
should be fewer chem rushes which has been proven to mess up
your allies. To play T3, you probably need wall ups as well as
by that time zerg will have higher attack.
What we need are more YT videos on this new patch ;D I will
invest my time to watching how its done rather than playing
badly. You should post your replay guide on YT to reach more
people. I am the kind of person who prefers to watch YT on my
phone while doing other things. I would be up to seeing a
firebat as tanks push video in this patch :D
#Post#: 867--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 24, 2020, 9:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Nice to hear that you liked my replay :) And even nicer to hear
your playstyle is already somewhat similar!
Yeah, big spines are not that scary if you are a micro machine.
Though the replay of course showcased the easiest of easy
scenario, no spawner, no transfuse. I should have build some
slowlings around it and maybe some strikelings coming in from
elsewhere to make it a bit more harder & realistic. (Though
microing marines to mitigate splash + transfuse it is out of my
league, so I can't show you that :p.... unless I ask one of my
premades for a little practice mode tutorial. Would probably be
nicer than my easy mode solo run).
Regarding your points about chemical I totally agree, and I've
posted my opinion and arguements many times.
"Chems might make sense in a longer game whereby you invested
early at the expense of your army (and your allies. But if your
allies are new and not helping as pointed out by Iancula, its a
good option) in return for a good economy later on. Also for
players being pushed back, they can have a source of gas income.
It certainly does not have to be chems. As suggested elsewhere,
the back gas can be buffed."
This is technically correct, but I'd like to make everyone
reconsider this:
A chemical (800mineral, 700gas), is that really a good option
for a player that is pushed back? Investing several minutes of
their entire income into a building that is equal-ish to 3
upgraded refineries? The chemical needs to be up and running for
almost 6 minutes until it generated the amount of gas you
invested. And 0 of the 800 minerals. Sure, past that point, the
player will have more gas than before, to build economy and
upgrade walls... but he could have invested 700 gas for that a
while ago. To give you an idea on how that impacts your economy,
if you have 50 mineral income for 10 minutes that's 500
minerals. If you have 100 mineral income for 5 minutes, that's
500minerals, too. How rich you are is not entirely revealed by
the number at the top of your screen you are, that's more of an
indicator how rich you are going to be in the future. This is
already more than I meant to type and it only regards the pushed
back player part... I myself feel bad about this :(
Regarding useless allies... they will not be more useful when
you invest into chemical. At that point you are trying to abuse
the overpowered factors of chem, either firebats or stacked
walls and you are, perhaps only in my opinion, getting closer to
being useless yourself. When I play and I get stuck with 2 new
or so bad they'll be useless players, the objective is to make
my zerg waste as much eco and attention on me, so the other side
can win. Trying to safe up money for chem is not something I
consider useful in that situation. If the other side is useless,
too, just leave the game. Even chemical isn't going to get you
out of this situation, in my opinion.
#Post#: 1157--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: blah Date: December 4, 2020, 8:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Defender nerf was way too much. The regen is absolutely useless,
I couldn't hold my walls with 3 defenders vs T1 units. You
cannot hold all sides of your base at the same time. This,
coupled with the fact that you have no gas to be able to upgrade
your wall is devastating. When Ravators come into play... I
don't even want to talk about it. end quote of post host.
Agreed. i have to keep units by the yard or the walls fall. I
thought even without chem plant, ok, but without the yard
advantage, now it's 2 fronts of attack, especially with attack
ups, no armor ups without chem and then ravs too. It definitely
did change things up. agree a reduction in the pre patch healing
bonus of defenders.
maybe even a chem plant gas reduction? so they produce less gas
compared to pre patch.
#Post#: 1158--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Oayoo Date: December 4, 2020, 9:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You are not suposed to rely on walls in low-ground x).
Adapt your way of playing instead of crying.
The wall meta is over.
Adapt, improve, overcome :)
#Post#: 1177--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Mett Gaming Date: December 7, 2020, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=blah link=topic=87.msg1157#msg1157
date=1607136283]
When Ravators come into play... I don't even want to talk about
it.
[/quote]
You don't have to. The way the game is balanced right now, if
you just autocast t1 marines with 250-300 minerals/minute and
know a little about micro you just roll over the zerg before
they even have the energy built up to make ravs. Think abusing
chemplant was bad? Try abusing marines! It feels even more
broken (also ends the game at 14-16 mins, depending on when and
if the zerg realizes it's pointless to continue onwards)
Worried about defending your yard? Then don't build one. Just
invest into more marines. (Yes, I'm serious.)
There's your terran guide. Can we now please return to zerg side
of the discussion as there is still no counter to T1 marines?
Yes infestors, but they run out of energy eventually. Terrans do
not.
#Post#: 1178--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: December 7, 2020, 8:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=87.msg1177#msg1177
date=1607348354]
Worried about defending your yard? Then don't build one. Just
invest into more marines. (Yes, I'm serious.)
[/quote]
I told a guy who lost his yard to strikeling ball that the best
way to not lose his yard is to not make it. He called me a
dickhead x)
Not building a yard is legit 200 IQ :)
And unlike chem marines need a little bit of brain, mechanics
and resource management (mainly energy). Does zerg have a way to
counter? Nah, not really. Not when the majority of terrans know
how to build a proper economy and then translate their eco into
a proper army and then use said army. Luckily for zerg, usually
the amount of terrans that have this type of mentioned skill set
are a minority - facing a lobby stacked of them is unlikely.
Next time I play in a party of 4 (is pretty rare, mostly it's 2,
occasionally 3), I will try limit everyone to 2 out of the 3 low
ground gasses^^ should be fun :p (zerg should have a better
chance at outgrowing a 2 gas terran, even if the terran is very
skilled^^).
I've tried figuring out a way to buff zerg, but the obvious
options are stuff like decreasing supply cost, decreasing tech
cost, decreasing unit upgrade costs / implementing them into the
tech upgrades (really liked that idea for a bit), but the issue
is that all those are 0 IQ buffs that will make even the
stupidest zerg stronger. Zerg however is already in a pretty
good spot strength wise when facing not so good terrans (won
some games using mainly lings + ravator). Statistics put it well
in his post, zerg just lacks a way to express skill, it needs a
tool that is drastically more useful in the hands of a skilled
player, rather than a tool that will be similarly good in
anyone's hands (buffs to supply cost, tech etc). Sadly I'm
seemingly not able to figure out a way to do so :/ Most of the
ideas I had would help any zerg, but I don't want idiots to win
a game without playing well (which is why I hate old patch
firebat doom push so much; a player much weaker than me can have
a more lethal impact than me because of 1 unit and 1 building).
Zerg should get something along these lines:
-Requires skill (micro and / or braincells) to be effective.
-Zerg has 3 terrans to deal with, but whatever they get should
only be used evenly against them; there is already too much
extra stuff the best terran on a side has to put up with.
-Preferably bad scaling; it should be strong early game, but
mediocre in mid and nearly useless in late game, zerg's mid /
late game is already quite powerful if they don't get destroyed
early on. (Of course they can always destroy themselves early
on... *cough* capacity *cough*)
Maybe someone with a bigger brain than mine can figure out a
nice tool that will give actually skilled zergs the ability to
win against several good terrans, even if that means they never
lose to mediocre terrans (seems fair to not lose to mediocre
players when you are considered highly skilled, doesn't it?)
#Post#: 1184--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: blah Date: December 7, 2020, 8:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
i think pro mode is a good idea, or something similar. like
change the difficulty level depending on the number of games in
a bank file? could be manipulated with bank file deletes but if
it makes gameplay better maybe players won't do that.
#Post#: 1186--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: December 8, 2020, 8:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=blah link=topic=87.msg1184#msg1184
date=1607392804]
i think pro mode is a good idea, or something similar. like
change the difficulty level depending on the number of games in
a bank file? could be manipulated with bank file deletes but if
it makes gameplay better maybe players won't do that.
[/quote]
Could also be manipulated by idiots with huge bank files and no
skill.
#Post#: 1228--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: blah Date: December 9, 2020, 5:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg1186#msg1186
date=1607437346]
[quote author=blah link=topic=87.msg1184#msg1184
date=1607392804]
i think pro mode is a good idea, or something similar. like
change the difficulty level depending on the number of games in
a bank file? could be manipulated with bank file deletes but if
it makes gameplay better maybe players won't do that.
[/quote]
Could also be manipulated by *s with huge bank files and no
skill.
[/quote]
yea there's another post in new ideas that discusses some type
of gamechange to teach new players bc right now there is nothing
except the loading screen.
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page