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#Post#: 804--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 10:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
That's only cuz we didn't decide to play cheap chemical bunker
game. Funny, those games are right after.
You can rewatch the replay btw, that's what the google drive
link is for.
Roaches were really garbage in old version, OP to stop marine
push, but you have like no eco, terran makes walls and just
camps you to death. Nice selective memory. The games were
literally 1 after another. And you told us bruta rush was
impossible after we literally did it the game before x)
But yeah, I'm sorry, of course when I say the lobby was average
after watching the replay, I'm wrong when you mean to remember
it was 2v2. You are right, it was 2v2 and we build 6 slowlings
on each of you and upgraded capacity lol. (if you watched the
replay you know it wasn't).
Were you the best 2 terrans in the game? Most likely yes, but
did you play well? Nope, not really x)
#Post#: 806--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Wricez Date: November 23, 2020, 11:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
can you send the replays? i dont have them saved anymore and i
bruta rush all the time with robot i doubt id have said it wasnt
possible as 70% of my wins are with 22min bruts. i have the
replays but cannot open as i have to login to my old account
which has been hacked
#Post#: 809--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Iancula Date: November 23, 2020, 11:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg800#msg800
date=1606146253]
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zxG1l4pK05dn5f1MSASM7o_dysqUKwq/view?usp=sharing<br
/>(replay file, just saying)
Wricez + lancula (terran) vs. Speed and Avion (zerg)
Rest of lobby is mid / low tier, but are kinda pushing. Of
course nothing great, but I've seen worse. It's fair to say
average lobby.
You get owned. You get owned by full eco zerg that let you
expand freely (some strikeling harrass, but that is not gonna
kill you, is it?) You get owned because you don't push enough.
You AFK and get chemicals and you are *ing clapped.
Without chemical you might have won that game because then you'd
have had to actually push the zerg. I said this so many times,
chemical plant does not speed up how quickly you can get elites,
first chem is 800 mineral, 700 gas, T3 is 850 gas (250 gas T2 +
600 gas T3) yard and lab is same cost, so that equals out. Quit
this bullshit of "chemical is needed for T3" it's not. It's
needed to stack a gazillion of wall ups to afk through zerg
attacks xd.
I only watched Wricez play and was amazed by his 165/246 income
at 16minutes. So *ing low. Lancular did a little better, master
mechanics helping him I guess. Hey, I'm diamond, not that either
is really relevant for zerg hex(it's only mechanics, doesn't
help you understand the game). Wricez knew brutalisks were out,
yet he doesn't even manage to prepare his bunker, nor get
elites, even though chemical was in that version LUL. Even if he
had T3 tech though, the amount of minerals he generated in that
game would have likely not been enough to defend brutalisk
anyways (Elite is very expensive and sucks more energy than
kirby sucks anything)
Face it. You are bad. Nothing wrong with that, I'm bad, too. You
don't need chemical, you need to improve your own skills. Don't
ask for lazy AFK tools.
Morgosh did this "Hey I'm 1v1 master zerg" thing, too... guys I
appreciate that you are more successful on 1v1 ladder than me
(never made it past diamond), but that is entirely irrelevant
for zerg hex balance & design lmao.
[/quote]
Bringing a game where maybe I didn't play that well (didn't
check it yet) and calling me bad for it is just sad. I never
actually remember you playing well, only in perfect conditions.
You waste your APM with flaming.
One game is anecdotal and it does not represent me as a player.
Nor it is relevant to this discussion.
Shall I bring the multitude of games where you flamed everyone
and left?
Shall I bring up the game where you literally dodged the lobby?
Shall I bring up the game where because people didn't play the
way you want you started flaming everyone and wished to one guy
that their parents die in car accident?
Shall I?
No, because I have actual arguments to sustain my points.
I just asked for clemency towards players that don't dedicate
their life to Zerg Hex.
I would like to discuss with arguments, which, sadly you didn't
bring any.
#Post#: 810--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Zergie Date: November 23, 2020, 11:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
117 games player here with 74/43 ratio. Was at around 10/20 at
one point.
I agree with having some form of chem plant as well as giving
back some of the previous defenders ability. Reason for that is
the ion game. Currently, we noobs die too fast without our chem
and defenders to even contribute a single ion now :-\.
If chem and walls is not the super optimised path as explained,
there should be no harm in having it as a sup par option. We do
need an option for newbies to do. Pushing out is a skill that
takes some learning and lots of experience to do reliably.
Currently I can take down the 2 extractors and big spines (if no
transfuses). But while I was learning to do that, I lost my army
all the time.
I admit, I was one of those players who thought pushing out was
a bad idea when I saw how those players who pushed out usually
got overrun and instant quit, while I was busy getting firebats,
pushed and usually made more of an impact than those players. I
learnt the firebats, italis and ion strategy in game from all
the players who were the last to die. But after watching some
azwscout, mett and iro videos, I was convinced otherwise. I am
getting good at at using marines, but even now I lose my army
now and then.
Certainly chem and walls are useless against the pros but,
against normal zerg players, there was always the option to hold
the low ground and go for a mass elite push at around 40 minute.
That was the highlight, winning with the strongest units with
maxed upgrades.
As pointed out, this is unranked, so we do need some options
that is easy and viable for newbies/overruned/bunkered players
to do. Having more options is also more fun than a monotonic
game where the strategy has already been predetermined.
Don't really agree with pro/vanilla mode cause that will make
the players confuse as to what is in each version. I played a
few games in this patch and people were going firebat rushes.
Also, forcing changes on everyone is good for testing the game.
(and getting feedback)
A suggestion would be to make armory upgrades cheaper. In the
previous patch, the top tiered upgrades were all sponsored by
the chem plant ;D
This forum is a good place to learn stuff. Tried speed's yard on
high ground suggestion and it makes lots of sense. Not much apm
required to do that :)
I gave up after playing a few games on this new patch and kept
losing every game as terran. Thats why I'm on forum now ;D.
Thank you WMaster for creating and updating this super addictive
mod. I will probably continue to play even if nothing changes.
For now, I'm on detox.
#Post#: 811--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 11:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Iancula link=topic=87.msg809#msg809
date=1606151589]
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg800#msg800
date=1606146253]
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zxG1l4pK05dn5f1MSASM7o_dysqUKwq/view?usp=sharing<br
/>(replay file, just saying)
Wricez + lancula (terran) vs. Speed and Avion (zerg)
Rest of lobby is mid / low tier, but are kinda pushing. Of
course nothing great, but I've seen worse. It's fair to say
average lobby.
You get owned. You get owned by full eco zerg that let you
expand freely (some strikeling harrass, but that is not gonna
kill you, is it?) You get owned because you don't push enough.
You AFK and get chemicals and you are *ing clapped.
Without chemical you might have won that game because then you'd
have had to actually push the zerg. I said this so many times,
chemical plant does not speed up how quickly you can get elites,
first chem is 800 mineral, 700 gas, T3 is 850 gas (250 gas T2 +
600 gas T3) yard and lab is same cost, so that equals out. Quit
this bullshit of "chemical is needed for T3" it's not. It's
needed to stack a gazillion of wall ups to afk through zerg
attacks xd.
I only watched Wricez play and was amazed by his 165/246 income
at 16minutes. So *ing low. Lancular did a little better, master
mechanics helping him I guess. Hey, I'm diamond, not that either
is really relevant for zerg hex(it's only mechanics, doesn't
help you understand the game). Wricez knew brutalisks were out,
yet he doesn't even manage to prepare his bunker, nor get
elites, even though chemical was in that version LUL. Even if he
had T3 tech though, the amount of minerals he generated in that
game would have likely not been enough to defend brutalisk
anyways (Elite is very expensive and sucks more energy than
kirby sucks anything)
Face it. You are bad. Nothing wrong with that, I'm bad, too. You
don't need chemical, you need to improve your own skills. Don't
ask for lazy AFK tools.
Morgosh did this "Hey I'm 1v1 master zerg" thing, too... guys I
appreciate that you are more successful on 1v1 ladder than me
(never made it past diamond), but that is entirely irrelevant
for zerg hex balance & design lmao.
[/quote]
Bringing a game where maybe I didn't play that well (didn't
check it yet) and calling me bad for it is just sad. I never
actually remember you playing well, only in perfect conditions.
You waste your APM with flaming.
Shall I bring the multitude of games where you flamed everyone
and left?
Shall I bring up the game where you literally dodged the lobby?
Shall I bring up the game where because people didn't play the
way you want you started flaming everyone and wished to one guy
that their parents die in car accident?
Shall I?
No, because I have actual arguments to sustain my points.
I just asked for clemency towards players that don't dedicate
their life to Zerg Hex.
I would like to discuss with arguments, which, sadly you didn't
bring any.
[/quote]
Ah yes, it takes a special kind of stupid to say "I never saw
you play well, except perfect conditions" whilst quoting a post
of mine where I say "I'm bad". Next level arguement. Good job.
Yeah, in the heat of some games I flamed people, you talk about
actual arguements, yet you only bring up my flaws, which is
fine. I already knew I had them and most people did, too, but
thanks for clarifying. Getting frustrated in games and spending
more time flaming people is a large part of why I play premade
only lol.
How is "Without chemical you might have won that game because
then you'd have had to actually push the zerg. I said this so
many times, chemical plant does not speed up how quickly you can
get elites, first chem is 800 mineral, 700 gas, T3 is 850 gas
(250 gas T2 + 600 gas T3) yard and lab is same cost, so that
equals out. Quit this bullshit of "chemical is needed for T3"
it's not. It's needed to stack a gazillion of wall ups to afk
through zerg attacks xd." this not an arguement? Just because it
doesn't fit your way of thinking doesn't mean it isn't an
arguement, if you really think it isn't then none of what you
said is an arguement either (but what you said are arguements,
ignoring the post I'm quoting).
Sure, judging a player off of 1 game leaves quite some room for
errors, can be an above or below average perfomance in just 1
game and that's not something giving you accurate information
about the player's actual skill. However, making chemicals
against full eco zerg without even taking a big spine? Seems
like huge tactical error. I guess it's fair to say nobody,
really nobody, except a select few players (hexnabs, mostly) do
this (I've never seen anyone do it nearly as eco focused, sure
there were people that kinda skipped roaches, some did ultras,
but nobody ever did straight brutas, never saw it in game, never
saw anyone talking about such a game).
I stand by my point. Chemical is a broken thing and I'm glad
it's out of the game and I very much hope it will stay out. Just
try to play with veterans man, they are really good vs. roach
now. A master 1v1 player should not have much of an issue to
pressure while ecoing & and thinking of transitioning (from T1
to T2 and if T2 doesn't end game, from T2 to T3)
#Post#: 812--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: RickSanchez Date: November 23, 2020, 11:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg811#msg811
date=1606152866][...][quote author=Iancula
link=topic=87.msg809#msg809 date=1606151589][...][quote
author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg800#msg800
date=1606146253][...] It's needed to stack a gazillion of wall
ups to afk through zerg attacks [...]
[/quote][/quote][/quote]
that was the issue with the chemplant. why not limit walls to 10
or even 5? That will be enough in every non hardcore turtle
scenario and even allows ion rush to some extent
#Post#: 814--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 11:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=87.msg812#msg812
date=1606153312]
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg811#msg811
date=1606152866][...][quote author=Iancula
link=topic=87.msg809#msg809 date=1606151589][...][quote
author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg800#msg800
date=1606146253][...] It's needed to stack a gazillion of wall
ups to afk through zerg attacks [...]
[/quote][/quote][/quote]
that was the issue with the chemplant. why not limit walls to 10
or even 5?
[/quote]
Nope.
#Post#: 815--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 11:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zxG1l4pK05dn5f1MSASM7o_dysqUKwq/view?usp=sharing<br
/>This is the replay (was in my 1st post in this thread, right a
t
the beginning. No offense.)
#Post#: 818--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 12:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Zergie link=topic=87.msg810#msg810
date=1606152001]
Hi all,
117 games player here with 74/43 ratio. Was at around 10/20 at
one point.
I agree with having some form of chem plant as well as giving
back some of the previous defenders ability. Reason for that is
the ion game. Currently, we noobs die too fast without our chem
and defenders to even contribute a single ion now :-\.
If chem and walls is not the super optimised path as explained,
there should be no harm in having it as a sup par option. We do
need an option for newbies to do. Pushing out is a skill that
takes some learning and lots of experience to do reliably.
Currently I can take down the 2 extractors and big spines (if no
transfuses). But while I was learning to do that, I lost my army
all the time.
I admit, I was one of those players who thought pushing out was
a bad idea when I saw how those players who pushed out usually
got overrun and instant quit, while I was busy getting firebats,
pushed and usually made more of an impact than those players. I
learnt the firebats, italis and ion strategy in game from all
the players who were the last to die. But after watching some
azwscout, mett and iro videos, I was convinced otherwise. I am
getting good at at using marines, but even now I lose my army
now and then.
Certainly chem and walls are useless against the pros but,
against normal zerg players, there was always the option to hold
the low ground and go for a mass elite push at around 40 minute.
That was the highlight, winning with the strongest units with
maxed upgrades.
As pointed out, this is unranked, so we do need some options
that is easy and viable for newbies/overruned/bunkered players
to do. Having more options is also more fun than a monotonic
game where the strategy has already been predetermined.
Don't really agree with pro/vanilla mode cause that will make
the players confuse as to what is in each version. I played a
few games in this patch and people were going firebat rushes.
Also, forcing changes on everyone is good for testing the game.
(and getting feedback)
A suggestion would be to make armory upgrades cheaper. In the
previous patch, the top tiered upgrades were all sponsored by
the chem plant ;D
This forum is a good place to learn stuff. Tried speed's yard on
high ground suggestion and it makes lots of sense. Not much apm
required to do that :)
I gave up after playing a few games on this new patch and kept
losing every game as terran. Thats why I'm on forum now ;D.
Thank you WMaster for creating and updating this super addictive
mod. I will probably continue to play even if nothing changes.
For now, I'm on detox.
[/quote]
The old defender link with yard is the only (and I've posted
this before) thing I'd give back to bunker. You really don't
need chemical to rush ion (it can even slow you if you are too
far behind the zerg even).
Look at it this way, ion damage is permanent, even if you die.
If you skipped chemical & italis in the old patch, you could ion
soooo much sooner. The trade of that fast ion is, zerg can kill
you easy, you have 0-5 wall ups, no italis to easily take care
of ravators / nests or whatever else zerg try to break you with.
But even if they kill you right after, you dealt 600 dmg to
hive, zerg cannot undo the damage you've done. If they kill you
before you can get ion with this type of rush, odds are, you
wouldn't have reached a chemical either / you wouldn't have
gained any benefit out of it yet. I said it time and time again,
first chemical is 700 gas investment and it adds 120gas/minute,
so you need nearly 6 minutes of time to be even again. Oh did I
mention it's 800 minerals, too? Open your eyes (everyone, not
just the dude I'm quoting here), chemical slows you down a lot.
Can it be worth it? Yes, especially if you have time to get
multiple of them and stack wall ups. You only need to get tech
once, so the 2nd chemical is "only" 800/200 instead of 800/700,
but you are already totalling 1.6k minerals in chems already.
That could be so much gen up, too. I'm tired of repeating it
again and again, but I will NEVER stop until you understand...
chemical was good for firebat cheese, and nobody wants that
back, and it was good for stacking wall ups and AFKing. Yeah it
made all the high tech marine ups affordable, but do you realize
their prize is so high because they are only meant to be
attained after a very long time? Chem made it easier to get
them, but is your push really going to be strong just because
you have all ups , when 800-2400 of your minerals and 700-1100
of your gas are in chemical plant and its tech? I'm telling you,
you'd have been better off investing into army right away and
slowing the zerg down. More army with less ups and less zerg to
fight against...
Re-adding chemical / an alternation of it will always be 1 of 2
things, either it will generate too much gas, and terran can
actually use it speed up their economy AND their marine tech (be
it T2, T3, or armory upgrades), OR it will be too expensive
(like chemical actually was!). Terran is meant to be limited on
gas income. I've discussed big spine spawning buggo when
killed... while I like the encouraging of pushing a change like
that woud provide, killing a big spine and the spawners around
it in itself is a big advantage for terran, it shouldn't award a
buggo on top of it, in my opinion. Also there is a nest right
behind big spine you can kill to get a buggo, too. It's also
part of decision making that defines a good terran, who chooses
to spend his limited amount of gas on the right upgrades / eco.
I usually get boost and penetrating laser in the armory as soon
as possible, boost is cheap and if you have no energy issue, can
be used both defensively and offensively, penetrating laser is
expensive, but doubles T1 dmg against spawners (because they
have 2 armor). I don't rush into shattering laser, I rather add
some more before, as it's more of a defensive upgrade. If you
just gave me more gas, I'd still do that, but it would have less
of an impact, hence lowering skill ceiling.
The current patch is very hard for terran, especially after 1
year of AFK easy patch. That's why I keep bringing up a nerf to
ling & creeper capacity max unit count 4 down to 3...
However, if you can kinda get through the early game, if you
start pushing and zerg starts roaching, T2 now does well vs.
roach, so unlike last patch, you don't need to bunker up and
play the ion game, because the roaches are weaker and the T2 are
stronger. And the amount of allies wasting tons of resource into
chemical plant is down to 0 because chemical doesn't exist. I
played a game today, I only took 1 big spine, I was middle and I
got F2ed instantly with micro (no matter what you do, this puts
you back sadly and middle really needs & deserves a change).
Anyway, I was fortunate that game, I had 2 allies that pushed
farther than just nest! So we ended up winning the game and
while I certainly contributed by taking a lot of zerg's
attention, the majority of pushing had been done by my allies
(well, I actually killed most buildings, but they killed more
big spines)
Maybe they would have pushed in the old patch, too, maybe they
would have instead used their time and resource for chems... I
don't have to tell you which option I prefer, do I?
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/12X8Xk2miFHV0wy0k4PAASYm6GDrbpM1n/view?usp=sharing<br
/>Here is a theoretical style of playing (solo game, not real
lobby), while it obviously lacks something from a real game (for
example a zerg doing anything), in a game where you are not
getting focused super hard, this can really push your terran
efficiency quite a bit.
#Post#: 824--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: ZergTriumph Date: November 23, 2020, 1:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I like the new patch. Zerg wins most pub games, which is as it
should be. When most new players join a game called "Zerg
something something ...", they're picturing a game with an
overpowering zerg force and a group of scrappy terrans
struggling to survive. That's how the game is now. And the
playstyle is far more intuitive for new players now: expand,
make marines and try to kill the zerg before the zerg kills you.
The elimination of chem plants eliminates turtles who let their
allies take focus while they safely build up chem plants in
their base. This makes the game less frustrating for new
players who intuitively grasp how to play but would previously
be frustrated by turtling teammates and give up.
And of course, more players will enjoy zerg now as it isn't
playing rock paper scissors vs 3 other people at the same time.
;D
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