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#Post#: 792--------------------------------------------------
Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Iancula Date: November 23, 2020, 8:36 am
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Hello! Thanks in advance for reading this!
Introduction
Terran main here. A decent 380-170 score, 95% solo games and no
resets(it's not much, but it's honest 99% SOLO work). If I'm
premade, I was mostly with one other player in my party(this is
important for later). 150 APM+ and ex-Master in Ranked 1v1 also
helped me a lot.
How did overwhelming majority of my games go?
Safe to say that most of my games were won solely by me alone(or
I had a very very big impact on the game) due to having new
people in the game(which I've always tried to teach) or people
absolutely stubbornly refusing to understand the game and having
an impact on a game even after several hundreds of games played.
Is it a problem that you can win a game solo as a Terran while
withstanding the full might of 2 zergs? Considering the game
concept, yes.
I am mostly focused because I was a chart leader with my score.
I did enjoy being focused most of the time, as if forced me to
adapt, learn the game, be more effective and personally I like a
challenge.
Problems pre 4.0
Gonna try and keep it short.
- Firebat rushes. 11-13-14 mins Firebats popping out which were
absolutely devastating for the zerg.
- 2 gas play with Firebats at min 16. If the zerg was decent
this put a tremendous amount of pressure on the other 2 terrans
on the lane which mostly resulted in a loss because the turtling
player failed to have such a meaningful effect on the game to
reverse the losses of 2 Terrans being overwhelmed and not able
to do anything(or be relevant) for 16 minutes and beyond.
- People not attacking at all or doing it way too late. I would
suggest putting the first line in the loading screen "THIS IS
NOT A TOWER DEFENSE!". The amount of people not understanding
this is absolutely baffling for me. I am not targeting new
players with this.
- People turtling/not expanding for no reason. I was even flamed
in some games that, I quote: "It's your fault for expanding"
- Very lengthy games because of the general passive approach of
players in their gameplay style.
Keywords/problems in all this and one which everyone agrees
upon? Firebats and passiveness.
Patch 4.0
Forcing players to be aggressive now. Excellent way to do it
with these changes. But there are some big problems as well.
The concept is still the same. You have to push as a Terran to
deal damage to the Zerg economy.
Was it imbalanced before? Yes. I always said after I got a grasp
on the game that this game is only balanced because the lobbies
are not filled with terrans that know what they're doing. 6 good
Terrans means no chance for the Zerg. 2 good Terrans on the same
side could mean the end of the game for the zerg without the
siding zerg investing heavy resources in spawners to try and
keep the Terrans in check, which resulted in a loss because of
the lack of economy.
Now, while I absolutely agree that a game must be balanced
against it's most experienced players, I find counter arguments
here.
This game does not have a ranking system for pre-selecting
players of your MMR to join in the lobby. It will never have.
With a ranking system and being relatively sure that you get
people of close enough skill, these changes would not have been
such a big problem.
This is not a Triple A game with immense popularity and a
blooming community of players. This is an SC2 custom
game(absolutely no disrespect towards the creator, I think it's
an excelent idea otherwise I wouldn't have spent hundreds of
hours in it), but you have to consider this aspect when
balancing. For 99% of the people it will be playing a few games
from time to time. If you're not good, indeed, you should not be
very effective, but forcing players to team up to be able to
beat Zergs is a very very bad idea. People that have
ridiculously high win rates don't play solo almost at all.
With this patch
General problem: Most of the players don't understand the
concept, don't expand, don't attack, don't answer your queries
when you ask them to do something, don't help you with energy
from the tech lab if you have problems holding, have no map
awareness or micro. Flaming is an often occurrence from players
that have the least impact on the game.
Removal of Chemical Plant & Defenders massive nerf
This thing was extremely unwarranted and not the cause of the
problem. Firebats? Absolutely. Their removal would have been
extremely good for multiple reasons, as per the reasons stated
above. I don't think any player would have had a problem with
that. Except butthurt and hypocrite ones. Any player playing
them know they were imbalanced.
Gas is the backbone of the Terran economy. You need it for
absolutely everything except energy(actually, indirectly, you
need it for energy as well). Farms, marine upgrades, farm
upgrades, wall upgrades.
Now you have to chose:
- Abandon defense and eco to get aggressive and have an impact.
I am talking about getting to vets and actually doing game
ending damage. Which is fine, if all players do it. But lets be
serious.
- Abandon aggressiveness to play defensive and make eco to be
able to do something in the long run(which is disgusting and
sad) and cause 30+ min games for no reason.
You basically took the concept of a car which works with GAS and
said "Hey, you either push it to move or you stay inside to have
shelter. You can't do both at the same time."
This change completely drove the ability of "solo" players to
have an impact on the game. Took away all the rewards of
actually doing all the things above, respecting a build, using
your experience to get a good balance between economy and army
to have impact on all stages of the game. You have to chose a
path.
Marines upgrades cost waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much to be able
for them to be effective after a certain time stamp considering
the removal of Chemical Plants. Zergs can still rush Brutalisks
and completely stomp your base as with Veterans you have no real
chance of defending, not even your Construction Yard side. Good
luck getting to Elites now in a timely manner. Brutalisk rushes
at min 20-21 were a problem before if executed correctly, now
even more.
Defender nerf was way too much. The regen is absolutely useless,
I couldn't hold my walls with 3 defenders vs T1 units. You
cannot hold all sides of your base at the same time. This,
coupled with the fact that you have no gas to be able to upgrade
your wall is devastating. When Ravators come into play... I
don't even want to talk about it.
If you get pushed in base because of extreme focus, it's
basically GG for you. You have no real chance of being effective
as your ramp walls can be easily destroyed/no Chemical Plant to
augment your economy to be at least able to get some in base
eco.
Proposals
Now, because I'm used to life and don't just wanna be a naysayer
without bringing any relevant courses of action to the problems
I signal, here follows my list of suggestions:
1) Put the chem plant back.
Holding 4 total gases will be hard enough this patch. Getting 2
extra side gases is impossible vs a zerg that has more than 5
games in the game. This game is not built for you to defend
everywhere and that is fine. Every inch of expansion must come
with costs, not with only benefits.
Balance(numbers bellow serve only example purposes biased from
my own experience):
- Remove Firebats or keep the the existing ones. They are
utterly useless anyway in this state. Not even a match for T1
units.
- Put a timer on the possibility of building chem plants. Let
players start building it since like minute 18. In this way you
completely eradicate rushes with Firebats/stop Terrans
snowballing with too much economy. This will also force players
to be aggressive as they can't do anything otherwise.
- Limit the amount of chem plants players can build. Lets say, a
maximum of 3. 800/200 is still a serious investment, especially
in the early stages.
- Considering the changes above, players can still pile up
resources and build 2 chem plants min 18. To counter this I
would propose a "charge system" to build chem plants. Grant the
first charge minute 18-19. Second charge min 23. 3'rd charge
min 28, or something close to that. This will reward micro,
resource management, build order and prevent players from
snowballing with resources, as I stated above.
2) Give Defenders some of their DEFENSIVEcapabilities back.
- Half of their bonus to walls. I agree it was a bit too much
and very strong how it was before, but now it's like they're not
there. The bonus to the wall upgrades is way too little
considering the removal of Chemical plants. Completely removing
their defense bonus and dropping them to 3 is just too much.
3) Pro Mode
- This is an excellent suggestion from another thread. Default
to "Vanilla mode" and let players choose if they want the "Pro
Mode" or not. Make it Brutal there. Make it such that only the
best players on both sides will be able to be relevant there.
- This will also alleviate the frustration of solo players that
just wanna have some fun. I only stuck to this game because it
was possible to for me to be relevant on my own. Having to rely
on another 5 people with no real ranking system is almost surely
going to bring extreme frustration. Having to rely on people in
games is very rarely yielding good end games. I think we all can
relate.
This is basically all that I have to say at the moment. Don't
assume that everyone is playing in parties with good Terrans.
Most of the people play solo because of the imbalance of having
good coordinated premades.
Good to have you back and see you balancing/maintaining things
for absolutely free for us to enjoy out of your own precious
time.
#Post#: 794--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Wricez Date: November 23, 2020, 8:47 am
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This post is spot on with the issues of 4.0 and gives good
propositions to fix the gas issue without including firebats
back into the game.
#Post#: 795--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Oayoo Date: November 23, 2020, 8:47 am
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No more Firebats + chem back and defenders back = Ion/italis
meta vs godlike Roaches.
Welcome to the 2hours games we had 2 patch ago :) We will have
lot of fun!
I can't wait to stack elites + Italis in my high ground to kill
10 times the Omegalisk after seeing all my mates die to Roaches.
Good old time lol.
#Post#: 796--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Wricez Date: November 23, 2020, 8:57 am
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[quote author=Oayoo link=topic=87.msg795#msg795 date=1606142846]
No more Firebats + chem back and defenders back = Ion/italis
meta vs godlike Roaches.
Welcome to the 2hours games we had 2 patch ago :) We will have
lot of fun!
I can't wait to stack elites + Italis in my high ground to kill
10 times the Omegalisk after seeing all my mates die to Roaches.
Good old time lol.
[/quote]
I enjoy this instead of getting run over by roach and having no
eco to play a long game. If I get hard focused all game and
haven't been able to get more than two gas I can still get a
chemical and hope to play the long game out instead of just
holding and seeing rest of my team die after being ignored for
30mins.
Worst feeling is losing to a newbie zerg that just mass spawners
you all game with zero eco whilst ur team mates are all jerking
each other off from their 3 gas sentry gun fortress
#Post#: 797--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Iancula Date: November 23, 2020, 9:03 am
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[quote author=Oayoo link=topic=87.msg795#msg795 date=1606142846]
No more Firebats + chem back and defenders back = Ion/italis
meta vs godlike Roaches.
Welcome to the 2hours games we had 2 patch ago :) We will have
lot of fun!
I can't wait to stack elites + Italis in my high ground to kill
10 times the Omegalisk after seeing all my mates die to Roaches.
Good old time lol.
[/quote]
I have never seen a 2 hours game, nor do I wanna be a part of
one. Reduce the income of Chem Plants then. I was always against
games that lasted more than 30 mins.
Why should I be punished in a game because people don't want to
play it properly? Is there a ban system or a ranking system? No
there isn't.
I would like you to bring something relevant to the discussion
not just some cheap ironies. Removing the gas income of a Terran
that hard is a bad idea. Elites, more than lvl 5 walls, Farm lvl
2 are mostly out of the question now because the Zerg can stomp
you at any time if you decide to invest too much gas. Not all of
us have backing clans of members with 1000 games to play Zerg
Hex with :D A broader view of the situation could be helpful.
The Terran economy was severely hindered, Zerg's economy is the
same.
I have brought multiple reasons, proposals and sensitive courses
of action, but you ignored them all.
#Post#: 798--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Oayoo Date: November 23, 2020, 9:12 am
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Terran economy can still be insane... you just have to adapt
your gameplay and expand more.
And yes i played a lot of 2hours games in these stupid patches.
And i was playing ALONE. 60% of my games in main account are
alone... I'm like you guys, just a player.
You all forget about converter because chem plant destroyed it.
This building is still here and has the same purpose x)
How do you think bunker worked before ? High mineral income
transformed into gas with converter.
And i'm obviously not ignoring what you say... Just because your
team is bad doesn't mean you must have a free way to win
alone... Wtf is this logic.
If your team is bad as Terran ====> you loose.
#Post#: 799--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Iancula Date: November 23, 2020, 9:39 am
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[quote author=Oayoo link=topic=87.msg798#msg798 date=1606144373]
Terran economy can still be insane... you just have to adapt
your gameplay and expand more.
And yes i played a lot of 2hours games in these stupid patches.
And i was playing ALONE. 60% of my games in main account are
alone... I'm like you guys, just a player.
You all forget about converter because chem plant destroyed it.
This building is still here and has the same purpose x)
How do you think bunker worked before ? High mineral income
transformed into gas with converter.
And i'm obviously not ignoring what you say... Just because your
team is bad doesn't mean you must have a free way to win
alone... Wtf is this logic.
If your team is bad as Terran ====> you loose.
[/quote]
"Is it a problem that you can win a game solo as a Terran while
withstanding the full might of 2 zergs? Considering the game
concept, yes."
Yes you are, otherwise you wouldn't have missed this from my
post.
You can't expand more vs a decent zerg.
#Post#: 800--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 9:44 am
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HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zxG1l4pK05dn5f1MSASM7o_dysqUKwq/view?usp=sharing<br
/>(replay file, just saying)
Wricez + lancula (terran) vs. Speed and Avion (zerg)
Rest of lobby is mid / low tier, but are kinda pushing. Of
course nothing great, but I've seen worse. It's fair to say
average lobby.
You get owned. You get owned by full eco zerg that let you
expand freely (some strikeling harrass, but that is not gonna
kill you, is it?) You get owned because you don't push enough.
You AFK and get chemicals and you are *ing clapped.
Without chemical you might have won that game because then you'd
have had to actually push the zerg. I said this so many times,
chemical plant does not speed up how quickly you can get elites,
first chem is 800 mineral, 700 gas, T3 is 850 gas (250 gas T2 +
600 gas T3) yard and lab is same cost, so that equals out. Quit
this bullshit of "chemical is needed for T3" it's not. It's
needed to stack a gazillion of wall ups to afk through zerg
attacks xd.
I only watched Wricez play and was amazed by his 165/246 income
at 16minutes. So *ing low. Lancular did a little better, master
mechanics helping him I guess. Hey, I'm diamond, not that either
is really relevant for zerg hex(it's only mechanics, doesn't
help you understand the game). Wricez knew brutalisks were out,
yet he doesn't even manage to prepare his bunker, nor get
elites, even though chemical was in that version LUL. Even if he
had T3 tech though, the amount of minerals he generated in that
game would have likely not been enough to defend brutalisk
anyways (Elite is very expensive and sucks more energy than
kirby sucks anything)
Face it. You are bad. Nothing wrong with that, I'm bad, too. You
don't need chemical, you need to improve your own skills. Don't
ask for lazy AFK tools.
Morgosh did this "Hey I'm 1v1 master zerg" thing, too... guys I
appreciate that you are more successful on 1v1 ladder than me
(never made it past diamond), but that is entirely irrelevant
for zerg hex balance & design lmao.
#Post#: 801--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 9:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Iancula link=topic=87.msg799#msg799
date=1606145962]
"Is it a problem that you can win a game solo as a Terran while
withstanding the full might of 2 zergs? Considering the game
concept, yes."
Yes you are, otherwise you wouldn't have missed this from my
post.
You can't expand more vs a decent zerg.
[/quote]
So if it's a problem 1 terran can solo the game, why do you
dislike current patch? Lots of players claiming it's impossible
unless 3-4 good terrans. By the way (no offense) you are mid
tier in my book, too x)
#Post#: 802--------------------------------------------------
Re: Feedback on 4.0, Problems/Solutions & Suggestions
By: Wricez Date: November 23, 2020, 10:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=87.msg800#msg800
date=1606146253]
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/13zxG1l4pK05dn5f1MSASM7o_dysqUKwq/view?usp=sharing
Wricez + lancula (terran) vs. Speed and Avion (zerg)
Rest of lobby is mid / low tier, but are kinda pushing. Of
course nothing great, but I've seen worse. It's fair to say
average lobby.
You get owned. You get owned by full eco zerg that let you
expand freely (some strikeling harrass, but that is not gonna
kill you, is it?) You get owned because you don't push enough.
You AFK and get chemicals and you are *ing clapped.
Without chemical you might have won that game because then you'd
have had to actually push the zerg. I said this so many times,
chemical plant does not speed up how quickly you can get elites,
first chem is 800 mineral, 700 gas, T3 is 850 gas (250 gas T2 +
600 gas T3) yard and lab is same cost, so that equals out. Quit
this bullshit of "chemical is needed for T3" it's not. It's
needed to stack a gazillion of wall ups to afk through zerg
attacks xd.
I only watched Wricez play and was amazed by his 165/246 income
at 16minutes. So *ing low. Lancular did a little better, master
mechanics helping him I guess. Hey, I'm diamond, not that either
is really relevant for zerg hex(it's only mechanics, doesn't
help you understand the game). Wricez knew brutalisks were out,
yet he doesn't even manage to prepare his bunker, nor get
elites, even though chemical was in that version LUL. Even if he
had T3 tech though, the amount of minerals he generated in that
game would have likely not been enough to defend brutalisk
anyways (Elite is very expensive and sucks more energy than
kirby sucks anything)
Face it. You are bad. Nothing wrong with that, I'm bad, too. You
don't need chemical, you need to improve your own skills. Don't
ask for lazy AFK tools.
Morgosh did this "Hey I'm 1v1 master zerg" thing, too... guys I
appreciate that you are more successful on 1v1 ladder than me
(never made it past diamond), but that is entirely irrelevant
for zerg hex balance & design lmao.
[/quote]
I used an old build that my clan leader made for fun, we dont
all play this game competitively like you so we dont care about
minuscule differences in mineral eco ' sorry u have ur elite
terran build where u get 4000 mineral eco and wipe the zerg off
the map pre 12minutes' but for early aggression i found the
early minerals are not needed as much as the gas { for the
marine upgrades ofc }. Pretty sure this game was 2v2 but i cant
remember the game nor our team mates so cant comment further as
ive lost my old account so cant watch the replay :( {sadly lost
the replay where me and lancula beat u and avion even when both
on the same side after u called roaches trash and then proceeded
to die to them }
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