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#Post#: 851--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Speed Date: November 24, 2020, 2:23 am
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[quote author=Buggo link=topic=77.msg850#msg850 date=1606201528]
Ty for creating this great game working, and balancing the
game!!! Please read this carefully!!!
1. Some people mentioned a lot about balancing the game;
however, the game is always imbalanced while there is a big
difference in skillset.
2. A fact that cannot be ignored is most lobbies contain 1-2 new
players, maybe more. Chem plant and fire bats are there to
balance off the new players.
3. Removing chem plant forced Terran players to push, but
pushing becomes the only way to win. Lack of gas source makes
upgrading wall impossible.
Which also kills ion victory. (I played 27 games after the
patch, only lost once; surprisingly enough that only 2 ions were
shot. About 5 games got to
brutalisk stage.)
Not going to comment on the patch, since there are people like
and don't like.
Here are the stats I got from my games.
18 Terran games 1 loss, 9 Zerg games 0 loss
Primal roach appeared once out of 27 games, ultra and beastling
appeared zero times.
Total less than 10 fire bats were built in 27 games.
0 games were ended with ion as Terran. 2 ions were shot ( 1 was
shot by Kylieee, and I pushed on ion blast)/(1 was shot by Dr
plato after got pushed back to highground)
0 games were ended with roach as Zerg.
The highest wall upgrade was 17(zerg was bad and everyone was
trolling, I managed to steal gas from a new Terran player, gave
me a total of 9 refinaries.)
The average wall upgrade was 2-3.
17 Terran victories: 15 Vets finishes, 2 Elites finishes.
9 Zerg victories: 5 bruta/torra finishes, 4 terran quit before
armor 2
Average of 1-2 new players in each lobby.
More than 95% of players complained about the new patch
[/quote]
Good post, I appreciate it even though the "More than 95% of
players complained about the new patch" doesn't support my
opinion.
I have to disagree on "2." giving terrans an abusive mechanic
(or 2 if you want to separate between firebat and chem) is in
fact not a way to balance a game, even when there is new
players. I've made many posts about chemical already, if you
need details about anything, feel free to ask, but I'm not gonna
type again how it's a huge investment etc.
I totally agree with "1.", that's straight facts right there
(and by the way, along with premading, a reason I'm thinking I
win most my games, to be entirely honest with you :p )
About "3.", ion win is a lot harder, yes. However it's not
entirely impossible. Instead of bunkering up you have to defend
with an army now, while saving excess energy until you can ion.
This also needs communication among terrans, but I think I can
provide an entire example.
Picture this; Ink (RickSanchez) posted a guide, mass infestor,
full eco into A5, it's a good guide, however, terran's should be
able to pick up on the fact zerg is heavily investing into
infestors. If you talk to your team and make the decision that
instead of playing aggressively, you instead will just defend
with army and ion the somewhat slowed zerg down, it's still
possible. Early infestors + eco means you will get a relatively
free early game (which you should anyways, capacity is BS), you
should have a good economy and if you focus on getting gen ups
and lab stacks instead of being out on the map, your macro will
be better (I would consider myself a relatively fast player with
~150-170apm in the majority of my games), even I cannot macro
perfectly and sometimes not at all when trying to make something
happen offensively.
In my opinion ion win changed; it used to be "get chem, wall up,
afk auto-charge lab, whenever someone ions I say to myself
"yes", whenever zerg break a bunker and kill a terran I think to
myself "no" ", in the new patch, and this hasn't been figured
out quite yet, which is perfectly fine since it's quite new, but
I'd imagine you can still make ion your main strategy to win if
pushing doesn't seem feasible for whatever reason, wether it's
mass hydra, mass infestor, or anything else that you deem
capable of stopping the efforts of pushing.
Converters still exist, they are worse than chem in a lot of
ways, but also cheaper in tech and investment and assuming a
good mineral eco, you can use 2-4 (maybe even more, I never had
to use them, I was always happy with the gas I got from buggos
and extra gasses) to increase your gas income to get even stuff
like elite marine armory upgrades "early" (those upgrades are
meant for the super late game, hence the high price. If someone
was to bring better arguements than "we don't have chem anymore,
lower the cost of elite marine armory upgrades", for example
"I've been testing around with this upgrade in different
situations and it doesn't seem worth the cost, either make it
cheaper or remove it so people don't waste lots of valuable gas
on it". I will actually make this example even more specific.
Let's say I tested elite scopes, +1 range +1 damage for elite
marines, costs 700 gas (I didn't, this is just for the sake of
example), and realized that +1 dmg for a unit that already has
13 (12 base +1 by penetrating, you definetely get pen before) is
pretty mediocre (or even bad, it's increase of 7.7% in damage),
+1 range is nice, but the space efficiency / dmg density (how
much space your army needs and how much it will block itself
when attacking targets that aren't close enough yet) of elites
is the best ingame already, doesn't really benefit from this as
much as T1 / T2 would, therefore I deem this upgrade not worth
700 gas, you could get improved farming 1 + 2 instead (these
upgrades may be underrated by some, it literally 3x modifies
sheep eco) and have a lot more elites / gen ups.
If you brought this kind of line of arguements for some of the
things you want, there is a chance I for once will actually
agree with you lol.
To explain sheep eco:
Sheep gives +2 minerals when eating a fruit, improved farming 1
& 2 adds +1 each. The obvious conclusion to this is that is that
it 2x modifies the eco, from +2 to +4, but there is 1 minor
detail... the fruit farm itself generates minerals when fruits
are not eaten! Expired fruits grant +1 mineral already, so a
sheep eating a fruit for +2 is only an effective increase of +1
mineral, so if you now add +1 mineral for improved farming 1 and
2, you actually have an effective income of +3, 3x modified of
standard. Or maybe I'm nuts and missed a detail here myself,
perhaps @reh can elaborate. Having seen reh's posts he can
probably make a much more refined post on how effective farming
upgrades are and when you should consider investing :)
#Post#: 869--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: baZzZ Date: November 24, 2020, 11:19 am
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[quote author=Buggo link=topic=77.msg850#msg850 date=1606201528]
More than 95% of players complained about the new patch[/b]
[/quote]
THIS is the fact im talking and worried about, killing the
player base. Experiencing btw the same so, wondering how long
there will be full lobbys to play.
#Post#: 870--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Speed Date: November 24, 2020, 11:45 am
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Idk, I've seen some complains, but some people appreciating it,
too.
I genuinly cannot remember that an amount of players that would
have gotten close to totalling 95% of players complained.
I had the greatest zerg game ever today...
1 terran disconnected and in old patch this was horrible for
zerg, because of 2 spires gone. Now you need to hold T1 pressure
with less income, your tech 5 is naturally slower, you are far
more likely to die to firebats(for my playstyle it was this way
at least). With new patch there was no firebat threat. We ended
up skipping roaches (terrans didn't put enough pressure on us)
and made straight brutalisks without fear of suddenly dieing to
massive firebat push. Extremely happy about that. If terrans had
put more pressure, we would have roached ~13-14 maybe 15min
(depends how hard they pressure). Then continued eco, try eat
weak terrans, then made brutalisk and let late game unfold...
this is how I understand meta now, but of course nearly every
zerg keeps making spawner up front + capacity...
For zerg this patch is great... for terran... too, you just need
"playable" early game, balance between aggression and eco, be
ready to tech to veterans vs. roach and coordinate with your
team. Won vs. 2 semi new (1 had 120 terran rating at least) zerg
today... 3/6 terrans decided to die early game for no reason
(new), 1 was supporting with lab, do you know how rare that was
in version 3? Sometimes even when specifically asking your
allies to do that you wouldn't get it. Oayoo was pretty busy
defending mass slowling lol. I took my time and methodically
slaughtered the zerg. Not a speed run, I took my time waiting
for the right timings to maximize my power^^
If you know what you are doing and your early isn't a complete
mess because of hard focus, you can get so much done in this
patch. Even when your team isn't the greatest, especially
because often times your opponents aren't either.
#Post#: 871--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: baZzZ Date: November 24, 2020, 11:47 am
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You can keep on seeing what you want to see or face the
problematic.
Just waiting IN PRIME TIME 10 minutes for a lobby to start (
still waiting ). WELP! :/
Update: It just started, 2 ppl complaining about the patch -_-
#Post#: 872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Speed Date: November 24, 2020, 12:01 pm
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A zerg hex lobby has 8 players typically... if 2 out of 8
complain.. then, hmm... no offense, seems far from 95% but maybe
my maths are incorrect?
#Post#: 874--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Adam Date: November 24, 2020, 12:51 pm
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[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=77.msg872#msg872
date=1606240886]
A zerg hex lobby has 8 players typically... if 2 out of 8
complain.. then, hmm... no offense, seems far from 95% but maybe
my maths are incorrect?
[/quote]
meanwhile in my 47 games in this patch I didnt see SINGLE person
who would say he has more fun now than he had last patch
also did u read reveiws latety? especialy eu ones tells quite
the story about how "many" people enjoy it
#Post#: 875--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Speed Date: November 24, 2020, 1:21 pm
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that's just like 5-10 people complaining, considerably very few.
PvZ2 had millions of reviews of people complaining about kick
system, yet the game was very popular. Kick system might have
had some adjustments, but it's still there even today.
Might just be me coming from pvz2, but I really only look at
reviews for some pointers and ignore all the whining, that's
usually (not saying it is now) people who have no idea what they
are talking about lol.
To keep it on pvz2, there are the most ridicoulus claims by many
players that either side is OP, yet if you knew what you were
doing you know the only OP thing is either after-life probe role
(both had way more impact than a killed player should ever
have). While probes can do some nasty things, the game
ultimately depends on skill, a probe constantly rebuilding
transports isn't "abusing" OP mechanics, that's not something
everyone can do (I totally cannot, and several players have said
I was the top 1 player in pvz ~2015/16). I think with hex
reviews it's similar, if you check the ones of non-current
version, people claim all kind of stuff. Some of it has more
truth to it than others :)
Until the game actually drops in popularity (can't see that
right now) I'm not really worried. Do you feel like quitting?
Why? Because you can't win anymore? Because you don't have fun
anymore? Because you cannot do whatever the frick you want and
win with it as long as you do it well enough? No matter how many
posts we do, it keeps all coming back to chem, I've explained my
opinion about like 5 times, I will not comment on it again, you
know my opinion.
#Post#: 879--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: ZergTriumph Date: November 24, 2020, 5:07 pm
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Lobbies are filling pretty quickly every time I join. Maybe
even quicker than before.
#Post#: 882--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Buggo Date: November 24, 2020, 9:22 pm
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Played more in wild lobbies and more thoughts on the new patch
1. T1 push and turtle play definitely way less than before.
2. New patch made Terran a lot aggressive, and stronger Terran
even stronger. (Haven't seen an 8 pros lobby yet, I assume its
still 90% Terran victory)
3. Zerg early game was rough, can't even push 3 average Terran
(50%WR) back before brutalisk.
Bruta rush becomes the new meta like what someone wanted;
which I don't like at all, it's a bit gamble.
4. Seems like there less familiar names appear in games. Lobbies
fill up pretty quickly depending on the time of the day.
5. Some people built like 20 ish firebats to push the hatch at
15min. Kinda funny, they died so quickly since the range so
short and barely killed the hatch.
firebats offence play is for gone, and defence is a maybe.
6. Very few ions shot, very low wall upg in general as I
mentioned before.
7. I asked some players like ten, and how they think about the
patch, most players absolutely hate it.
Pros (80%WR) seem okay with the patch.
Some personal thoughts, so the game is definitely more
competitive; however, the gameplay and strategy are limited to
Marin push and Bruta rush. I don't like to be honest, and I
prefer more creative gameplay and a good unit combo. From the
older patch, firebats push and ion finish were options. In order
to play Terran, you definitely need some good allies. Zerg play
becomes tedious as I'm not a big fan of bruta rush.
I suggest asking for some opinions from more general players, as
they are the main flow of the game.
Maybe I should go back to ladder haha and get my master border
rofl^^
#Post#: 884--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Oayoo Date: November 24, 2020, 9:59 pm
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It is really rare to see a bruta rush.
It is inneficient. Roaches are still godlike and i really think
even ultras are a better choice than bruts.
You have choices.
(infestors are key units on this patch for zerg)
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