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#Post#: 785--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Oayoo Date: November 23, 2020, 7:44 am
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[quote author=Wricez link=topic=77.msg784#msg784
date=1606138507]
maybe make buggos give more gas? Terran feels far too weak to
play solo right now that I will only play with 3+ team mates
that are competent at the game if I want to play Terran.
[/quote]
Good, continue with the ideas !!!! this is a good start.
#Post#: 786--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Adam Date: November 23, 2020, 8:04 am
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[quote author=Oayoo link=topic=77.msg783#msg783 date=1606138480]
What ? but i though you guys said it was impossible to win as
Terran?
And now "vets already roll over everything before bruta" ???
If you have no trouble roll over everything with vets why are
you guys saying that 2 good Terrans can't win anymore ???
Maybe you guys are not related.
So some of you are thinking that Terrans are too strong
The others think that Zerg is godlike.
??? hurt in confusion. Someone is obviously lying/saying stupid
stuff or maybe both who knows.
Stop make critics and start propose stuff.
[/quote]
fine if u rly have no other way of discussing other than
pretending to be clueless (when we both know u understand
perfectly what I mean) I will elaborate
vets roll over everything... if terran ever push with them and
actualy try to kill stuff
just as transfuse is great tool for zerg to defend yet 90% of
zergs dont make single festor in first 20 min
this is not about balance, for this we need to wait few days for
new builds to come up
its all about fun from the game now as terran if ur ally simply
refuse to push u cant do anything, there is no way for u do win,
at the same time if u have indeed ally who pushes with u, then u
just roll over everthing
while on zerg it is watching how bad terrans are forever stopped
by slowling flood while u play autoclicker simulation with
transfuse on big spine vs good ones
is any of it op? maybe... maybe transfue is too good at
defending, maybe vets are too good at attacking idk yet, we will
see
but is game more fun solo in random lobby? not rly, opinion that
from both here and in game reviews most of community seem to
share
#Post#: 787--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 8:09 am
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It's funny how everyone I talk to is anti-chemical plant, but
it's exactly the chemical that you miss in 4.0
So I guess you want some sort of chemical, that is balanced.
But you have to understand, the mechanic of a chemical will
never be balanced. Just like pretty much everything is not going
to be balanced (in the hands of a more skilled player,
everything and anything will be stronger). However with the
chemical it's especially horrid.
Picture this: minimize the community down to 3 players, 1 player
is a 100 games played beginner, 1 is a good mid tier player
(this is where I'd rate Bazz, Adam, ink etc) and 1 is a top tier
player (Me, Oayoo, Spectre (actually Spectre is beyond top
tier), Avion, Sahar, Roger, Najdorf, aVehicle (this guy was the
master of abusing chemical and firebats in old patch and bunker
in any version, but I like him anyways, because unlike most, he
just understands the best (easiest and most reliable) way to win
the game, and that has always been what he's been doing, so I
expect him to play marines now lul). I hope you don't get stuck
on half these players being hexnabs, try getting stuck on the
other half if you don't like hexnabs.
Now all of these 3 players, if they all play chemical + firebat,
if firebat is a useful tool for even a beginner, what is it in
the hands of mid tier? In the hands of top tier? Obviously it's
OP in even mid tier hands. Top tier... single player game. Like
playing 1v1 against very easy AI.
If firebat is balanced in the hands of a mid tier player, then
beginner will be weak with it, top tier will still be op.
If you make it balance for top tier then beginner is useless and
mid tier is weak.
Of course this arguement can be made for marines, too, but
unlike firebats 1 top tier marine player cannot really solo the
game (sahar's solo zerg with limited strikeling eco managed to
beat 2 top tier marine players in old patch, along with a mix
of 4 low to mid tier players, but what allowed him to do that
was that Oayoo and I made the, in that patch, useless veterans
instead of the overpowered chemical. (We've won that way against
sahar twice before). There were some firebats involved in that
game, too, but too late and in insufficient numbers, had they
been, Sahar would have lost the game right then and there.
With the firebat of old patch removed, zerg can commit to
fighting the marines, without getting walked over by firebats
20minutes later. This is a good change of things both design and
balance wise.
Chemical is useless without old patch firebat. Stop asking for
reimplemation / something new to cover its spot. Gas is no
longer ammunition for bat and stacking wall ups is no longer
going to let you bunker for 1h+ (which again, is a good thing
both design and balance wise)
My current take on what this patch offers:
Step 1, terrans need to build up economy, zergs need (should
would could, but often don't sadly) to build economy, too.
(capacity needs nerf, it heavily screws with the game in my
opinion). Step 2, terrans have built their economy and build an
armory now, upgrade their marines, start to poke / push the
zerg. Zerg is now on a timer, they need to evaluate how much
longer they can build their economy and when they need to tech
into roach and make an army that can "fight" with what the
terrans throw at them. Step 3, zerg decided to stop their
economy and are now bringing roaches to the battlefield, terrans
should tech start making veterans since they are much better
than T1 vs. roach now. Zerg needs to try and maybe eat some of
the weaker players, in an average lobby there will be 1-3
players that should be easy to eat, however they can be sort of
protected by the pressure of stronger players. Step 4, if zerg
didn't die they now have a strong roach force, perhaps
eliminated a couple terrans and the remaining ones are fully on
T2, so zerg who never should stop increasing their income
entirely, now need brutalisks to counter the T2, and the terrans
assuming they cannot end the zerg before they reach brutalisks,
need elites. Perhaps some of the overwhelmed T1 players managed
to bunker up, if their energy isn't needed to support pushes
maybe they can start ioning (ion is still usable in 4.1 imo,
though the defender nerf makes bunkers break easily) Also T2
players who were overwhelmed by brutalisks of course. Step 5 is
simple. Tastetosis (the duo casters Artosis and Tasteless) would
call it "supreme late game", either zerg win with their roach
brutalisk army and break bunkers with a mix of ravators, infused
roaches, torralisks and damage ups. Omegalisk is only needed if
a terran with mass T3 saved his army on the high ground, but
even then can probably be killed without. Or terrans manage to
win, either with their T2 and or T3 armies or with ion.
See, I'm a toxic elitist hexnab player, but damn, I know this
game in and out (69/3 & 24/0 in old patch, that's just insane,
even if you play premade and avoid the really poor lobbies). My
wall of text above might be incorrect, after all, I can make
mistakes, like calling all of you fcking r3t4rds fcking r3t4rds,
I'm only human, too. (damn, langague filter xd)
I offered to play with you, I offered to help you improve, and
all you do is ask for chemical / something that is chemical with
a new name. And when confronted you say you are against
chemical. That is quite frustrating, not gonna lie.
Here's the only thing that I can see be added for terran:
Upgrade for refinery to give +1 gas, but you are only allowed
(upgrade will be unavailable if elsewise) to get it if you only
own 1 refinery. And it would probably need to break when you get
another refinery. In turn it can be rather cheap. It really has
to limit you though, that's the entire point of getting pushed
back lol. It would be better (so much better) to nerf capacity
to spawn max 3 creeper / ling so you can fight for your outside
gasses with bigger chance to success, getting pushed back early
is not really how the game is supposed to work.
Ok, let me propose an actual change to Wmaster (something most
of you never did as far as I saw, only say new patch is shit and
that it's a hexnab patch etc etc)
If a terran has only 1 Refinery (has to be upgraded for 80
minerals first), add an upgrade for 25minerals, 20second upgrade
time to further increase income from +2 to +3, this upgrade can
only be done if the terran has no other refinery (be it upgraded
or not), and upon building a 2nd refinery the upgrade on 1st
refinery is destroyed. Could be called "Poor terran's
salvation", even though it really isn't.
Like it or not, I believe this is more constructive than
everything some of you guys posted, I only see "Wmaster game is
dieing, please give back old version, just instead of chemical
plant give us something similar, like phemical clant".
That is actually quite disgusting spreading of fear, you are
trying to make Wmaster change the game back, but if the new
patch is really so unappreciated, we need polls, and not just 1
poll, but several polls over time with every player
participating, and that's not going to happen, so it will only
be rumours instead of actual facts (Adam, you like facts, don't
you?)
Maybe Wmaster can gather some data of all games played, get some
actual global results on how many games are won by zerg, how
many are won by terran and how many games are played. I don't
know how possible this is, but that would be the best way to get
reliable feedback on how the game is doing. Both balance and
popularity wise. Surprisingly it's not always the way some nerd
on forum says it is (This directed at adam / bazz and everyone
else just as much as it is directed at myself and hexnabs. I
truly mean to apply this to everyone lol).
#Post#: 788--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Oayoo Date: November 23, 2020, 8:13 am
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Adam, What you are saying was the same on last patch.
Good allies ===> most likely a win.
bad allies ===> most likely a loose.
this isn't new xD It was the same last patch.
Zerg hex is not as basic as what you say. You have ways to be
stronger than average players.
Pushing T1 into transition T2 and maybe T3 + macro while micro
is really fun !!! No games are the same.
This patch will force players to push so you will not be alone
pushing anymore in random lobbies^^
#Post#: 789--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Adam Date: November 23, 2020, 8:28 am
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[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=77.msg787#msg787
date=1606140547]
1 is a good mid tier player (this is where I'd rate Bazz, Adam,
ink etc)
[/quote]
now thats just insulting...
#Post#: 790--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 8:30 am
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Also, lots of people complain about some units not being used.
I sort of understand this, but adding to the wall of text I
made, 1 developer cannot make a bunch of units work vs another
bunch of units in a symmetrical game well, let alone
asymmetrical.
Ultralisk used to be king before 3.0 as far as I know. In 3.0
roach was better than it, in literally every regard other than
draining maybe. And brutalisk was the unit you needed to reach
to have a chance to shut everything terran could throw at you
down.
Some units are bound to be useless sadly... or maybe not
useless, but very very niche. Look at SC2 for example
(professional level only, idc what gold leaguers smurfing on
bronze do), how many times do you see ghosts used in TvT early /
mid game? You only see it super rarely ever in the late game,
with only purpose to drop a nuke somewhere. How often do you see
swarmhost in ZvZ? Swarmhost in TvZ when terran is going bio and
zerg knows? (there is some fake mechs that bait the zerg into
making swarmhosts, because it's good vs. mech and pretty
horrible vs. bio). All these units have a place in different mu
of course, that's why they are not changed, but it's easier for
blizzard to do such stuff, they have an entire team and
pro-scene and while they have 3 different races, at least teams
are symmetrical (1v1).
We should really be happy that we have a complicated chain of
counters like this: Armor 0 units < upgraded T1 < (upgraded)
roach < T2 < brutalsik < T3 ---> Late game. This is amazing for
a 1 man project.
#Post#: 791--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Speed Date: November 23, 2020, 8:34 am
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[quote author=Adam link=topic=77.msg789#msg789 date=1606141725]
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=77.msg787#msg787
date=1606140547]
1 is a good mid tier player (this is where I'd rate Bazz, Adam,
ink etc)
[/quote]
now thats just insulting...
[/quote]
You think you are a top tier player with your 60 average apm?
You super cut your eco to get dmg done fast. 13minute big spine
kill is respectable, but you only upgraded 3/6 gasses, your
mineral income was 200-ish at 13 min (mine was 300, 6/6 gasses
upgraded).
You are mid tier from my perspective. A good mid tier player,
but not more than that. Play faster and more balanced between
eco and aggression and you will be top tier in my book.
#Post#: 793--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: Oayoo Date: November 23, 2020, 8:38 am
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From my perspective i'm also a mid tier player Adam, don't be
mad, it is already nice^^
There are lot of players way better than us, we have to accept
that.
#Post#: 813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: GrumpyKitten Date: November 23, 2020, 11:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=77.msg748#msg748
date=1606077866]
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=77.msg743#msg743
date=1606076816]
I qoute your post, then qoute the other guy. do you know what "
" stands for?
You just half read what others write, then reply to an imaginary
point that was not made. Then trying to downplay that you did
not had the mental capacity to realize.
"hurr durr you should have written a formal letter saying DEAR
MR XY WHO POSTED THE FOLLOWING" ;D ;D ;D
At this point i am pretty convinced that you are mentally
challenged. ;D ;D ;D
Please dont stop posting, it gets better and better every time
[/quote]
You know I could argue how " " doesn't at all telegraph that you
now are quoting Bazz instead of me.
About the mentally challenged part; I think you are mentally
challenged, too. More so than me even, not that it would matter
much who has the more rotten water melon as their head.
I genuinly liked and agreed with quite a few of your recent
posts, but at this time I'd prefer it if you stopped posting. 1
F2 delays your push, but assuming you didn't massively lack the
measures to defend it, how does it stop you from pushing right
after? If it was a really stacked F2, but you manage to clear it
quickly without needing to kite back, there will even be a nice
void of missing rallies that you can use to push. I think the
fact your armory was like 2-5 blocks too far from spine to
outrange it slowed your push more than the F2, but who would
expect proper armory placement from a mentally challenged
grumpykiddo, amirite? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
[/quote]
If quoting someone else dont ring the bell that i respond to
another guy... i have a bad newz for you boi just to set the
record straight about that mental department. You can apply any
amount of mental gymnastics on this, and 300 smiley.
Sorry, but i wont feed you anyomre. I really think you both
miserable IRL and then fulfill frustration ingame. Provoking
this hard, and having this god complex is a telltale.
#Post#: 817--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.0
By: baZzZ Date: November 23, 2020, 11:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=77.msg791#msg791
date=1606142059]
[quote author=Adam link=topic=77.msg789#msg789 date=1606141725]
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=77.msg787#msg787
date=1606140547]
1 is a good mid tier player (this is where I'd rate Bazz, Adam,
ink etc)
[/quote]
now thats just insulting...
[/quote]
You think you are a top tier player with your 60 average apm?
You super cut your eco to get dmg done fast. 13minute big spine
kill is respectable, but you only upgraded 3/6 gasses, your
mineral income was 200-ish at 13 min (mine was 300, 6/6 gasses
upgraded).
You are mid tier from my perspective. A good mid tier player,
but not more than that. Play faster and more balanced between
eco and aggression and you will be top tier in my book.
[/quote]
Sorry speed but WHO ARE YOU to rate other ppl? I mean, who the
**** do you think you are?! You don't play solo and you are
proud on your stats?! I played often with you, and i didnt see
one good player in the game. ( no im surely not good, but
someone playing like you wont surely judge/rate me. Oayoo can,
Spectre can, this guys literally outplay me, but not you. )
Now back to topic - what about, removing ION, bringing back
Chem(or something compareable, like trading system or anything
helping getting eco ) WITHOUT Firebats. Terrans ONLY could win
by pushing ( that's what you want ), but you still have a way to
comeback with eco when you got focused ( thats what i would like
to see ). And Zerg doesnt need to fear ppl pushed back because
they cant kill him without facing him. This way you could like
make strategic moves, attack from more sides and outplay zerg.
And it hasnt to be the chemical, just something to eco up a bit,
and get elites before minute 40. Like good Zergs have Brutes at
minute 19-20. Also you could enable zerg atk to 60 so there wont
be endless bunkering.
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