DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Zerg Hex Forum
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Miscellaneous
*****************************************************
#Post#: 588--------------------------------------------------
One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Adam Date: November 20, 2020, 2:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I will start with apology- as a part of situation I wrtie about
I may be somehow subjective in my wording, but still I hope my
point gets thru
As of now any discussion about balance is imposible as forum got
engulfed in flames of war betweed 2 sides:
1 people from nabs clan stuck in ways of pre 3,x who wont be
satisfied untill game return to this state
2 people who played mostly after 3,x and enjoy something else
than just "do rins or die"
This war is not going away on its own, our opinions are simply
too different, for example just go to t2/t3 thread:
1 video yet 2 complety oposite opinions on what is a mistake and
what is not
one side belive that terran should be able to hold f2 from
entire zerg despite making literaly 0 defensive structures and
that just massing rins with no eco is a way to go, while other
side keep... well... disagreeing to put it simply
What we want are basicaly 2 different games and honsetly I gave
up on hope that we will ever agree on something and type mostly
due to small hope u dont want to make this game into what 1 clan
that mostly play in premades wants
So here is my question: What do u Wmaster think?
do u agree with nabs that this arcade should be proxy 3 rax
simulation, where there is only 1 allin as viable strat and good
player= someone who just click fast and can exacute this 1 strat
best
or do u agree that some of things from 3.x are good and need
only little twiks nerf/buffs insted of straight up removal and
opinion that good player= someone who balance pushing and eco so
that while he do dmg to other side while he still has resources
to adapt to what his enemy is doing(and isnt surprised when 90
roaches with +11 dmg roll over his 40 vets that probably didnt
even have deflective)
I think it will be best if u just say what u prefer and in what
direction u want to go so other side can let go of hope of
making this mode into what they want and hopefully stop this
flaming
also other people - pls dont start another flame fit here, I
just want to hear wm opinion to see if there is any point in me
trying to fight nabs crusade against anything other than basic
allin and only reson why I typed it as a post instead of private
message is bc I belive it will be best if everyone sees what
the answer is
#Post#: 590--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Oayoo Date: November 20, 2020, 2:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=70.msg588#msg588 date=1605904668]
good player= someone who balance pushing and eco so that while
he do dmg to other side while he still has resources to adapt to
what his enemy is doing
[/quote]
That exactly what we do lol but if Firebats and bunkers are
nerfed, there is nothing you can adapt to x)
[quote author=Adam link=topic=70.msg588#msg588 date=1605904668]
just massing rins with no eco
[/quote]
He most likely had the top income terran of the lobby :) you
again speak without knowledge x)
Roaches were not at damage lvl 11 x)
#Post#: 592--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Adam Date: November 20, 2020, 3:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
top income of the lobby not equall good income
but again I am not interested in arguing with u, lets just see
what wm thinks
#Post#: 593--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Speed Date: November 20, 2020, 3:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Granted he couldn't know my eco compared to other terrans, but
afaik the clip shows I'm close to 500mineral/min... that's
information that was available.
When I say all-in I don't mean auto-train T1 with 5-15gen ups
and ~200 mineral income (that is indeed silly, and it's actually
easy to beat if you can make a lot of slowlings + get packet
mass, 70+ T1 are useless without energy). With that said I will
read the lines after the first 2 xd
#Post#: 594--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Adam Date: November 20, 2020, 3:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
good income at 20+ min is AT LEAST 660+ minerals and 440+ gas
(and its with pushin nest around 11-12)
#Post#: 596--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Oayoo Date: November 20, 2020, 3:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Good income at 20+ min is 10000 mineral and 500000 gas lol
...
In practice mode yeah
Let me guess Adam, you are opening Yard and you rush cows ?
#Post#: 597--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: RickSanchez Date: November 20, 2020, 3:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
There are different ways to play out a marinefocus strat. you
can also make a cow eco to get possiblities for an italis into
bunker lategame. but i agree since it serves the most
entertaining gameplay in term of action it should be somehow
rewarded. i dont get what the fun is in staring at base for 60
minutes and semi afk ion hive down. atleast it is not what an
arcade should be like. if you want that there are better maps
out there called towerdefense. so the remove of the chemplant is
justified. but that leads into several problems one of them is
that it will be extremely hard to end a game after a certain
time. without knowing it i'd after 17 minute mark a roach zerg
will have the numbers to deny any kind of t1 push. also since
zerg has not to fear to get outeco'd he can invest in way more
infestors to deny even stronger lategame pushes forever. i have
not much hope that random lobbies of terrans will have a
satisfying game.
we have to wait and try if the cheaper veteran with +1 shatter
makes the difference but i have doubts. need more roach- and
transfusenerf to compensate for missing chemplant
#Post#: 598--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Adam Date: November 20, 2020, 3:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=70.msg597#msg597
date=1605906579]
There are different ways to play out a marinefocus strat. you
can also make a cow eco to get possiblities for an italis into
bunker lategame. but i agree since it serves the most
entertaining gameplay in term of action it should be somehow
rewarded. i dont get what the fun is in staring at base for 60
minutes and semi afk ion hive down. atleast it is not what an
arcade should be like. if you want that there are better maps
out there called towerdefense. so the remove of the chemplant is
justified. but that leads into several problems one of them is
that it will be extremely hard to end a game after a certain
time. without knowing it i'd after 17 minute mark a roach zerg
will have the numbers to deny any kind of t1 push. also since
zerg has not to fear to get outeco'd he can invest in way more
infestors to deny even stronger lategame pushes forever. i have
not much hope that random lobbies of terrans will have a
satisfying game.
we have to wait and try if the cheaper veteran with +1 shatter
makes the difference but i have doubts. need more roach- and
transfusenerf to compensate for missing chemplant
[/quote]
rly guys chill u are doing exact thing I asked u not to, and so
it will be last thing I am answering in this post before wm
gives his answer
as for comment itself - another wall of fancy sounding text that
at its core is going down to simple thing- how many basic t1/t2
rins strats are using chems? more or less 0 as comments in
another threat demonstrated, and how many are somehow (but not
rly) stoped by transfusing? quite a bit, even if transufe alone
cant rly save zerg from t1 it can only slow it down untill u get
ur way to roach
so its still "buff t1 push, nerf everything that isnt t1 push"
just in yet another set of words
and now I am done. pls dont talk more about balance here, its
not the place (yes yes I know I posted it in balance section,
thank u no need to point it out just go read last part of 1 post
again)
#Post#: 599--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Speed Date: November 20, 2020, 3:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Reasonable post, though quite biased, but can't blame him for
that I guess.
Yeah Wmaster... Should a veteran army of marines, value 2.2k, be
overrun by mass armor2 unit? Is that how the game is supposed to
look like? Terrans force roach & bad eco out of zerg, and upon
doing so the games switches to survival / tower defense mode?
I can T1, then drop my chemical at 20 minutes, but it's a rather
lame way of playing^^. A great way to win, but extremely boring
to play. Tar rush has bothered me for a long time, firebats and
italis, too, I'm not just copying the opinions of older players
when I say they are against the idea of the game, it's something
that is pretty obvious.
You beat a brutalisk / ultra rush by killing the zerg before
they can reach it, but it is impossible, even for hexnabs, to
kill a zerg before they reach roaches. The tech is simply sooooo
cheap, and once you have ~15 roach spawners and upgrades it will
never be worth for you to invest into primals / ultras. Only
brutas can be useful to have something heavy vs. firebat, but
you can also cover that weakness by upgrading strikes and
getting some infused roaches & torralisks.
Ion wins are much easier the more terrans are alive, but for the
love of god, most people will refuse to build their yard on top
of their ramp preemptively. (I tell people in game to do it, I
made a forum post, but obviously neither will make much happen).
So people have their yard on the low ground, they get F2ed,
overrun, they die, and now the game will take longer if terrans
are to win with ion.
aVehicle (hi, I know you read this.) told me that the "elite"
(the true elite of zerg hex, not the stupid hexnabs who cannot
even wall vs. roach) figured out years ago, if all terrans just
rush ion zerg will die with no counterplay. This means,
technically, we could just skip the T1 pressure entirely and
just go for the ion play immediately, however it would still
require 6 terran to know what an ion is, how to get there
relatively quickly and they'd have to be willing to do it. And
it would be the pinnacle of boredom.
Since you've already proposed a rework for firebat I will only
mention that they are horribly overtuned in current patch.
There is strategies besides the T1, trooper + reaper is a bit
out of fashion, but if you prefer it, you can certainly make it
work, especially if roach was removed / at least tar rush was
removed. Dezzter (you reading, too?) also has a meme build,
37-38 shocks, enough to one-shot a hive with instant discharges,
a build I always wanted, but never got, to try. Also you can
play energy support if you don't feel confident playing T1 (this
style is pretty dead right now). Getting help really boosts a T1
player, you shouldn't underestimate it. And even a mechanically
weaker player can be quite useful. (More useful than doing some
weakass T1 push theirselves, in current meta they will just be
eaten by roach sooner or later)
... And now I will shut off the forum. I made a post about T2 /
T3 and the comments are full off "why didn't you wall retard". I
said what I wanted to say, I had some trouble with some members,
but I made tons of constructive posts and depicted the state of
the game. The proposed patch is looking good, very good even, it
would be perfect if it removed tar rush / roach entirely.
-WallsWallsNoBalls.
#Post#: 600--------------------------------------------------
Re: One quick question toWmaster to end this flame war
By: Oayoo Date: November 20, 2020, 4:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=70.msg598#msg598 date=1605907260]
how many basic t1/t2 rins strats are using chems? more or less 0
[/quote]
You know that even if we hard push with T1 early game, as soon
as we see Roaches our main build is to go chemical+Ion ?
Obviously because going T2 is a suicidal move as Terran.
Once again you spoke without knowledge x)
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page