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#Post#: 552--------------------------------------------------
Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 20, 2020, 12:09 pm
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So in the proposed balance patch there has been some discussion
about the veterans and their overall, and vs. roach in
particular, strength.
It has been proposed to lower the cost by 5minerals and increase
the shattering laser dmg.
I'll keep this short, I could write a massive parapgraph and
blablabla, but not in the mood to do so.
I don't like altering the shattering laser, because unlike the
penetrating laser it's actually nicely linear, shattering right
now is 1 dmg for T1, 2 dmg for T2 and 4 dmg for T3 iirc (not
actually 100% sure about this, one of the things you don't
actually have to know).
The cost of veteran is a joke. You pay for Tier 2 (250gas), you
pay for field promotion (50/100), you then go on to pay 45
minerals for a vet that deals 2x the dmg of the 15 mineral T1.
It's a literal downgrade! And no, I don't give a fuck about
armor and space efficiency, T2 is a fucking downgrade. I lost 49
Veterans (2.2k mineral value) AT MY ARMORY to a solo zerg F2
roach ball, I dropped a powerfield from my lab, I activated the
boost, didn't matter. And don't tell me I should have walled! I
was putting my money into army (had no intention to build a
chemical due to upcoming patch), so I was basically all-inning
on making my army work. Now my army didn't even work as defense.
How stupid is that? 5 mineral isn't gonna do shit.
You need to reduce the cost to 30. 2x price for 2x dmg, you get
some health, you get better attack vs. armored target, you get
more space efficiency. An actual upgrade. Not the fucking
bullshit we have right now & the bullshit that has been
proposed. I would love to suggest the same for elite, however
elite is just a dumb bunker unit, it shines at stacking DPS on
small space and take down stuff like torralisk and omegalisk,
but unless the game had already been super over anyways it will
not be used topush.
I have 1 idea for elite that might work. Their intended (but
usually not their actual) purpose is to take down brutalisks.
What if we take 3 dmg away from the elite and make ignore any
armor past 4 (elite dmg is 12+1 with penetrating laser, so new
dmg would be 9+1). Idk how easy it is to code actually, but
basically an ultralisk still has 4 armor and takes 6 dmg. A
brutalisk has 7 armor, but 3 of it is ignored, so they still
take 6 dmg. Torralisk and Omegalisk take SIGNIFICANTLY less
damage from elites, since they work with HP rather than armor
(omegalisk has 1 armor and torra has 3). Elites are already
pretty inefficient vs. anything but brutalisks, and this change
would make that even more so. However, at this point, you could
then heavily decrease their cost, perhaps as low as 60minerals
(-50 compared to current). Only really meant to counter bruts.
This is what at least veterans have to be like to be efficient
and viable in my opinion.
#Post#: 554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 20, 2020, 12:21 pm
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Can't agree more.
HTML https://streamable.com/ogdete
#Post#: 559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Fiz
Date: November 20, 2020, 12:44 pm
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Well first of all, you are kind of retarded... First of all, you
don't have walls, second of all, you don't need to have the
field promotion. Of course we can assume that you get it, since
it is quite good.
#Post#: 560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 20, 2020, 12:46 pm
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I am done discussing balane with u as we will never agree so
will only ask 1 question: do I got this right?
bc based on this example u posted what I see is that:
1 solo zerg (aka full zerg force) lost most of his stuff and
invested all of free supply into roach (basicaly losing the
game, I mean 4k eco on 20 min dont need to be explained)
2 he got all upgredes possible: speed( I think), both roach ups
and 6 dmg ups on top of that
3 terran in his infinite subornes did not make even a single row
wall that would cost him idk 30 gas maybe?
4 then solo zerg f2 basicaly giving everyone but this one terran
free reign to do whatever they want
so returning to my question - u say that is a problem? that full
zerg force invested fully into army murdering his eco in the
proces, should NOT be able to punish 1 ONE terran who for
whatver reason decided 1 row of walls is too expensive to him?
is that it?
#Post#: 561--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: elon.schools@yahoo.com
Date: November 20, 2020, 12:48 pm
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So your first mistake was not making a wall, roaches are
terrible at breaking walls making them useless against a walled
off terran. for a wall you dont need anything fancy, just a 1
wall thick wall with a 1 space gap. that will only cost you
about 30 gas to make (50 or so if you want a gate). honestly you
dont need to be going for chem planets to do this. With a wall
you can pretty much negate any amount of roaches zerg decides to
send your way and with T2 you should easily be able to handle 2
times that many roaches with only like 20, hell you could still
hold with 40 T1 marines if you really wanted. You dont have to
turtle to make walls, walls are a good way to keep yourself safe
when the zerg F2s you. Thats why there are gates so you can
easily move in and out.
Also, dropping elites damage would honestly be unnecessary as I
think their damage is honestly fine, with about 70-80 you can
kill upgraded omega in about 3-4 seconds when they are maxed,
which mind you most terrans never hit. If you drop their damage
by 4 all you are doing is making them worse as they are the best
counter(other than italis) to torras and omega. As torras only
have 3 armor and omega only has 1 reducing their damage by 4 and
making them ignore all armor above 4 you pretty much shoot their
end game potential in the foot. Doing this would honestly make
vets worth more than elites as they would be putting out pretty
much the same damage against these end game units. Mind you
elites cost almost 3 times the amount a vet does
#Post#: 562--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 20, 2020, 12:55 pm
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You guys are all making our point hahaha.
What is the counter of Roaches ? ====> bunker :) Let's all
bunker together guys. Let's rename the map Tower defence of Zerg
hex.
Thx to help us convince Wmaster.
Btw the Zerg player won the game :) He killed 3 WALLED Terrans
with Roaches/ravator then rushed toralisks omega without risks.
Where are the bruts, primals and ultra ??? in the trashcan xD
Speed, That Strait smith is kind, he is telling you how to wall
yourself. You should thank him for that kappa.
#Post#: 564--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Fiz
Date: November 20, 2020, 12:57 pm
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--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
>
> You guys are all making our point hahaha.
>
> What is the counter of Roaches ? ====> bunker :) Let's all
bunker together guys. Let's rename the map Tower defence of Zerg
hex.
>
> Thx to help us convince Wmaster.
>
> Btw the Zerg player won the game :) He killed 3 WALLED Terrans
with Roaches/ravator then rushed toralisks omega without risks.
>
> Where are the bruts, primals and ultra ??? in the trashcan xD
>
--- End Quote ---
I mean we are just disagreeing with this 1 guy...
Also how about you could talk about your own experience.. If
someone else did something, it doesn't mean everyone can do it.
#Post#: 566--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 20, 2020, 1:00 pm
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1 row of wall does not equal bunker, for so many roaches zerg
had to bring all units from the map, what other 4 terrans were
doing then?
walls are what allows u to withstand zerg full focus that u
otherwise cant (and should not considering it is after all a
force designed to fight 6 people not 1) and buy time for others
to do stuff,
as obvious as it may sound (and yet u decide to ignore it) zerg
can only f2/ make ball of roach at 1 person at the time
#Post#: 567--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 20, 2020, 1:00 pm
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You don't understand that if you push against that you die
immediatly.
What you are telling us to do is to MAKE VETS but to NOT PUSH
WITH THEM LMAO BIG BRAIN.
So the only counter to Roaches is to BUNKER.
But bunker is literally the thing that WE DON'T WANT IN ZERG
HEX.
So basicaly telling speed to bunker to counter Roaches is saying
that heXnab's players are right to ask for bunker nerf x)
#Post#: 568--------------------------------------------------
Re: Veterans & Elites
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 20, 2020, 1:02 pm
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--- Quote from: That Strait Smith link ---
> [...]As torras only have 3 armor and omega only has 1 reducing
their damage by 4 and making them ignore all armor above 4 you
pretty much shoot their end game potential in the foot. Doing
this would honestly make vets worth more than elites as they
would be putting out pretty much the same damage against these
end game units. [...]
--- End Quote ---
that is true. Elites should also be able to handle Torras in
large numbers but an Omega should truely be lights out for a
terran. In that regard Speeds idea makes sense. Even tho Elites
would have to be drasticly cheaper than, since they lose alot
compared to veterans, while due to the increased shatter and the
possibility for elite scopes for another +1 extra, they could
still be viable to do some sort of doom push late in the game.
~25-30 min. I have no idea what a justfied price could be but 85
minerals could be a start to test. that would be a little more
than twice the vet in the next version.
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