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#Post#: 473--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Turb007
Date: November 18, 2020, 1:43 pm
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This may be a stupid idea but I'm going to throw it out there
anyway. With this proposed patch (which I'm all for btw), the
only problem that I see with roaches is a roach all-in, which is
what I think most of you are talking about. What if we just
limited the number of roach spawners a zerg can make? Something
like 90-135 supply worth. I think it would change the idea of
roaches to being something to buy the zerg some time (instead of
straight-up killing) vs multiple terrans going mass t1 while
being able to eco a little bit more before teching up.
As of right now, zergs are forced to cut eco for "early" roaches
around the 13 minute mark vs even just 2 good players pushing
with t1 (assuming your not rushing bruts as Oayoo stated, which
is sadly imo the best strategy right now). This is where you
either make just enough roach spawners to keep the t1 pushes
from doing too much damage or you go all-in. I see the purpose
of roaches as the former, and this change would eliminate the
potential for the latter. Even if the terran can't get a whole
lot done with t1, the terrans can eco themselves and tech up
because by pushing early you forced the zerg to make roaches
which hurt both the zergs eco dramatically, opening up the mid
game for the terran players.
On a somewhat side-note but kind of related, I personally don't
like the idea that terrans should be able to roll over a zerg
with t1. As of right now, this is very possible with 3 "pretty
good" terrans vs a "flawless" zerg. I see a lot of people
stating that they want to be able to win the game with t1. Thats
how the game used to be and it still is, even though its less
common due to firebats, chem, italis, etc. I personally would
llike the zerg to be able to hold t1 without losing absolutely
everything other than high ground (or even just down right
losing the game). I want there to be an actual purpose of terran
t2, and thats where 2 terrans pushing at the same time should be
able to do real damage. I win almost all of my terran games with
t1 pushes as the zerg can't do much about it other than mass
roaches. So when people complain about people doing roach
all-ins, what do you expect the zerg to do besides roll over and
die to t1? Hoping the primal buff will help with this but we'll
have to see if its enough.
I have a feeling most of you will disagree with me on this but
I'm trying to see this from both the terrans and the zergs
perspective. Either way, this probably shouldn't be changed
until after the launch of the new patch anyway.
#Post#: 478--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 18, 2020, 4:40 pm
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--- Quote from: Turb007 link ---
>
> I want there to be an actual purpose of terran t2
>
--- End Quote ---
I want it too x) We wish for T2/T3 to be good x)
We don't want to win with t1. It happens that t1 is the most
cost efficient unit (after Firebats in this patch) in the game
so we use it x)
#Post#: 487--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 19, 2020, 3:37 am
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--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
>
>
> I want it too x) We wish for T2/T3 to be good x)
>
> We don't want to win with t1. It happens that t1 is the most
cost efficient unit (after Firebats in this patch) in the game
so we use it x)
>
--- End Quote ---
Lies. We want to win with T1, it's the pinnacle of skill to run
up the hive ramp with 35-45 T1 and take out the spines. However
T2 / T3 being useful wouldn't be minded much.
#Post#: 488--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: WMaster
Date: November 19, 2020, 6:08 am
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Ah I see I've been working on the Zerg perspective with Roach
and Primal ratios. But it comes down to that from the Terran's
perspective it is not cost efficient to transition from T1 to
T2, even with the buff to Veterans.
I did some number crunching and it turns out that Veterans will
have about 2.8 times the effective damage of a T1 Marine against
Roaches and Primal Roaches. This is because of the armor. So
with 3 times the mineral cost it's better to create T1. It
shouldn't be that you have to invest in Tech and then get lesser
cost effective units. Because if you could choose between all
units, its best to pick the the most cost effective for the
situation. Veterans would likely be skipped. Although with the
Roach Infection mechanic where kills lead to more kills it would
also be effective to have lesser units for the same damage
output.
My idea is to reduce the cost of Veterans from 45 to 40 and
increase T1 Marines cost from 15 to 16. You would have little
lesser T1 Marines and the cost ratio will then be 2.5. Making
Veterans a bit more viable. Elites will still have a higher cost
effectiveness than Veterans starting from Ultralisk armor.
#Post#: 491--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 19, 2020, 8:26 am
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I'd like 35 or 30 better. 2x dmg for 2x price seems about "fair"
considering the tech. (50/350 in upgrades, yard + farming 1 is
50/400, so instead of that you could also siginficantly increase
income + get the first piece of the bunker to set yourself up
for an ion game if you have to).
#Post#: 492--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Mett Gaming
Date: November 19, 2020, 8:36 am
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You do get more hp and better value against armored units, so
having them cost more than double makes sense. They also have an
increased shattering damage, so 40 seems a bit more reasonable.
The 16mins for a T1 marine does only affect he early game. It
would take about 4s longer for the first marine to come out. Not
sure if that is what we need for terran with the planned chem
removal^^
For my 40 marine ball that means I can only get like 37 instead
of 40. Or wait another 10s.
#Post#: 494--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 19, 2020, 8:49 am
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35 would better i think
#Post#: 496--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 19, 2020, 8:51 am
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HP is irrelevant, you don't want your units to take hits,
especially vs. roaches with tar infection.
The HP isn't worth the cost.
#Post#: 500--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: WMaster
Date: November 19, 2020, 9:56 am
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--- Quote from: Mett Gaming link ---
> It would take about 4s longer for the first marine to come
out.
--- End Quote ---
Good point. How about compensating with 2 more minerals to start
with, making it 12 instead of 10. From the 3rd Marine you would
notice a delay.
Making Veterans 35 minerals would mean a +28% increase in cost
efficiency against Roach/Primals. It is worth considering. With
40 minerals it is just +12%. I think it would be good to first
know some results with them being 40. This because it leads to
less fluctuation in the case 35 turns out to be too cheap.
#Post#: 501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 19, 2020, 10:14 am
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yeah let's try it^^
The goal will obviously to skip +1 and rush t2 (or not finaly
depends of focus)
i wonder how fast we can have t2 in a t2 meta ! Can't wait to
try !
Problem is we have to build techlab really soon. It will slow us
hard.
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