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#Post#: 452--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 18, 2020, 9:02 am
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--- Quote from: ExtraLemon link ---
>
> [quote]Explain to me why a tier 1 basic unit should compete vs
2 armour tiers of units again?
--- End Quote ---
Zerg has 5 tiers, 6 if you count starting tier of armor, Terran
has 3 tiers of marines. If every tier only killed 1 tier of zerg
armor then Terran would need to have elites to kill Primals,
which is obviously not the case.
[/quote]
and remind me what new spawner is unlocked on a1? (no beastling
do not count)
also tiers are not only way for terran to have power spikes, t1
rins without ups and t1 rins with shatter are basically 2
different units
#Post#: 453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 18, 2020, 9:12 am
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--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
>
>
> and remind me what new spawner is unlocked on a1? (no
beastling do not count)
>
> also tiers are not only way for terran to have power spikes,
t1 rins without ups and t1 rins with shatter are basically 2
different units
>
--- End Quote ---
and remind me what new unit is unlocked on Tech 2? (no italis
and veteran do not count)
#Post#: 454--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: ZergTriumph
Date: November 18, 2020, 9:19 am
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I suggest that wmaster go ahead and implement this patch, and
then we can see what needs further balancing.
#Post#: 455--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 18, 2020, 9:33 am
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--- Quote from: Mehaperson link ---
>
> Though I can see the argument being made of, "but zergs don't
eco for the late game because they roach up and win games atm",
to which I reply, yeah, have you seen the current game style?
Zergs can roach/ravator and force terrans off low ground because
terrans don't play aggressive and try to chem up and "out dps"
zerg dps with wall upgrades. That's the meta
>
--- End Quote ---
The meta is the "most effective tactics available". Because you
do Roaches doesn't mean they are the meta right now. They are
useless because of Firebats but are made by players because most
are ultra bad lol.
However the day Firebats and chem are reworked, Roaches will
become something close to the god damn nuclear bomb. This is why
Speed kinda doesn't like all this patch.
If Roaches are still too strong after the nerf of Firebat, the
game will be even more broken than before.
And that is why we are proposing stuff around removal/big
nerf/fuse with primals for Roaches.
Btw, one of the biggest problem of Roaches is also how much
energy they drain. Terran just can't push it at all. 3 or 5
firebats as tank will not change that x)
To resume Roaches should be the ultimate trump card for all-in
Zerg but cannot be a huge t1/t2 counter if you want the game to
work and pliz just read my previous posts (Main problems in Zerg
hex in balance section), i feel like i'm repeating my point way
too much. The same questions come again and again without stop.
#Post#: 457--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 18, 2020, 10:20 am
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I probably have to clarify; I'm all happy with chemical plant
being removed and the current firebat being completely reworked
as proposed, but why is tar roach almost untouched?
I don't want a game where terrans are swarmed down with mass
roach xd. I'm 20/0 without having made a roach (other than 1
roach late game to get the upgrades for infused roach),
therefore I totally don't think it's necessary. Yeah I've lost
games to auto-cast T1 before, but it feels totally beatable, I
just needed to adjust a little better.
#Post#: 458--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Mehaperson
Date: November 18, 2020, 10:23 am
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--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
>
> [quote author=Mehaperson link=topic=58.msg447#msg447
date=1605709682]
> Though I can see the argument being made of, "but zergs don't
eco for the late game because they roach up and win games atm",
to which I reply, yeah, have you seen the current game style?
Zergs can roach/ravator and force terrans off low ground because
terrans don't play aggressive and try to chem up and "out dps"
zerg dps with wall upgrades. That's the meta
>
--- End Quote ---
The meta is the "most effective tactics available". Because you
do Roaches doesn't mean they are the meta right now. They are
useless because of Firebats but are made by players because most
are ultra bad lol.
However the day Firebats and chem are reworked, Roaches will
become something close to the god damn nuclear bomb. This is why
Speed kinda doesn't like all this patch.
If Roaches are still too strong after the nerf of Firebat, the
game will be even more broken than before.
And that is why we are proposing stuff around removal/big
nerf/fuse with primals for Roaches.
Btw, one of the biggest problem of Roaches is also how much
energy they drain. Terran just can't push it at all. 3 or 5
firebats as tank will not change that x)
To resume Roaches should be the ultimate trump card for all-in
Zerg but cannot be a huge t1/t2 counter if you want the game to
work and pliz just read my previous posts (Main problems in Zerg
hex in balance section), i feel like i'm repeating my point way
too much. The same questions come again and again without stop.
[/quote]
Gonna go ahead and add some nabs flare here and say
Imagine contradicting yourself and being confident about it.
From your post:
"With the patch, roaches became overpowered resulting in lot of
problems:
-What was a mistake of low lvl players became the meta-game.
-Roaches are actually now stronger than primals, ultra and even
bruts (bruts always were too cost inefficient).
What is the result ? Zergs are now strong early-game, godlike
mid-game, and weak late-game. Primals, ultralisk and bruts are
not played anymore by 99% of players."
So from your previous post, and you clearly stating what wasn't
meta game before is now meta game. Gonna go ahead and say that
you agree with me. Unless you'd like to change your position on
this here, then we'll go ahead and agree to disagree.
>Btw, one of the biggest problem of Roaches is also how much
energy they drain. Terran just can't push it at all. 3 or 5
firebats as tank will not change that x)
Why would it stop at 3-5? Why wouldn't you get 10-20 along with
the 30-40 t1/2 marines? If you have low ground and pushed
aggressively and roaches are now starting to come out with zerg
low eco, what's stopping you from teaching up and getting an
army like that?
Also among other things since it doesn't seem blaringly obvious
to you. To say remove/nerf roaches and not agree that roaches
are supposed to stop t1 pushes like you also said in your post,
"Roaches purpose is to delay the t1 marines push." Aka agreeing
with speed is another contradiction to yourself by saying
roaches can't be a huge t1/t2 counter.
With that I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that at least speed
knows what he wants, evem if he has less than stellar social
skills, where as you are kinda just agreeing where you see fit
instead of holding a position.
I said my points and it seems like neither you nor speed are
capable of addressing all of mine. So with that I'll just let
the patch hit and see what happens
Have a nice day.
#Post#: 459--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 18, 2020, 10:25 am
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Basicaly, if there are no real nerf to Roaches, the games will
follow this path:
-Terrans early push with t1 until 12/14 min
-Roaches appear.
-Terrans can't push anymore. They cannot bunker anymore (bunker
and Firebats nerfed).
-Terrans alt f4.
If you fix Firebats you need to really fix Roaches too^^ but as
always we need test in game to see how strong can be t1/t2
against Roaches on your patch.
--- Quote from: Mehaperson link ---
>
> Imagine contradicting yourself and being confident about it.
>
> From your post:
> "With the patch, roaches became overpowered resulting in lot
of problems:
> -What was a mistake of low lvl players became the meta-game.
> -Roaches are actually now stronger than primals, ultra and
even bruts (bruts always were too cost inefficient).
>
> What is the result ? Zergs are now strong early-game, godlike
mid-game, and weak late-game. Primals, ultralisk and bruts are
not played anymore by 99% of players."
>
--- End Quote ---
Yep, the meta-game for noobs :) not the real one.
The real meta of this patch is to rush bruts as Zerg sadly (and
i totally hate that). But if i start to say that the meta is to
rush bruts, you guys will all come and tell me i'm retarded lol.
I'm sorry but we are just 2 steps ahead of you x)
#Post#: 460--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 18, 2020, 10:35 am
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major flaw in your logic roaches and primals can still get
outnumbered by t1 marines and just slow terran down a bit.
roaches dont stop a terran. a roach all in does with tar does.
Still i think it also needs:
- nerf tar roach all in some more, by making basespawners
slightly more expensive and make tar roach have -1 speed, so you
atleast early can run away to armory
- nerf or rework transfuse (maybe move transfuse to a different
unit that is limited and only serves this purpose)
- remove or rework italis (into a limited harassunit to help
pushing player or keep the apm up while bunker ion game)
another minor thing. let start firebat with 200% max energy i
think it is justified for 50 gas. that is not important tho
#Post#: 461--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 18, 2020, 10:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mehaperson link ---
>
> Why would it stop at 3-5? Why wouldn't you get 10-20 along
with the 30-40 t1/2 marines? If you have low ground and pushed
aggressively and roaches are now starting to come out with zerg
low eco, what's stopping you from teaching up and getting an
army like that?
>
--- End Quote ---
Roaches are most games out around 12/15
And here we have Mehaperson thinking that u can have 10-20
firebats + 30/40 t1/t2 marines under focus... You don't even
have t2 at that timing...
Guess Mehaperson is so good he is creating minerals and gas.
Next lvl gameplay.
--- Quote from: Mehaperson link ---
>
> Also among other things since it doesn't seem blaringly
obvious to you. To say remove/nerf roaches and not agree that
roaches are supposed to stop t1 pushes like you also said in
your post, "Roaches purpose is to delay the t1 marines push."
Aka agreeing with speed is another contradiction to yourself by
saying roaches can't be a huge t1/t2 counter.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yeah, if you want the game to work, Roaches should just delay
t1, not destroying every family members of each marines
everytime they push. It means they musn't be a hard counter to
t1/t2, what is the problem lol ?
Day could be better i guess x)
#Post#: 462--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 18, 2020, 10:42 am
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I mean... I just find it kind of silly that people who some time
ago admitted they never play zerg unless they are 100% sure they
get to play with their buddy talk about meta on zerg... go play
some random lobby and then try to pull off ur bruta rush with
someone who dont even know english as ur teammate
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