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#Post#: 437--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Shameling
Date: November 18, 2020, 5:38 am
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I also think roaches need more nerf.
#Post#: 438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 18, 2020, 5:42 am
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If you do as i said it will cost less to have primals than to
have roaches + 2 Upgrades... Even low eco zergs in public
lobbies will be able to have primals.
My goal is to not let Zerg be able to cut his eco early game
without big damages. This way Terran can expand and play without
having the entire earth focusing him early.
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> pls stop with shared eco argument as a way for zerg to fast
rush primals, its not happening in random lobby with random
teammate and we all know it and it has nothing to do with skill
as it simply require lvl of communication unreachable with some
random person u dont know (and lets not even get started on
amout of people who dont communicate at all)
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm sorry but sharing money require skills: Trust, social
skills, more apm, knowledge of the game...
Once again roaches and primals should be fused, they have the
same purpose: Stopping T1 push.
#Post#: 439--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 18, 2020, 5:50 am
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--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> remove roach and lock festors behind 2k?
> XD
> then why even bother pretending that zerg should have any
chance vs 2 players that know how to autocast t1 no matter how
good he is?
> just make some mechanic that if 2 terrans build armory and
tech lab with 2 charges before 12-14 min zergs hive explode,
will be faster
> and one more thing - pls stop with shared eco argument as a
way for zerg to fast rush primals, its not happening in random
lobby with random teammate and we all know it and it has nothing
to do with skill as it simply
> require lvl of communication unreachable with some random
person u dont know (and lets not even get started on amout of
people who dont communicate at all)
>
--- End Quote ---
Just give win in current version if 1 terran manages to get full
walls and a yard then? Because that's basically the same. Takes
80 apm, 0 multitasking to macro behind closed walls kek. And no,
don't start with "it's the zerg fault if they allow terran to do
that", because it's totally gonna happen against even
semi-competent terran LUL.
Just had a game, every terran AFKed, 1 of them pushed with like
20 bats just before bruts... I just transfused spine for days
kekw. He whispered me after:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o6Sdg6fHXXmurZMleAuC6hbwOKhDKtm9/view?usp=sharing
Nice, so apparently a brutalisk rush is a noob strategy, hence
why you see it every time xd. Or maybe he referred to the
transfuse, which is nearly as uncommon kekw.
I even told terrans to tryhard & they need 3 gas... but they
took way too long, fully walled, double walled, against zerg
that are clearly rushing economy... at least I'm told again and
again how my build is obvious x) Yet hardly anyone tries to even
touch a big spine...
Just by knowing what I do and telling everyone else you are not
actually countering a brutalisk rush guys x)
#Post#: 440--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 18, 2020, 5:52 am
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--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
>
> If you do as i said it will cost less to have primals than to
have roaches + 2 Upgrades... Even low eco zergs will be able to
have primals.
>
> My goal is to not let Zerg be able to cut his eco early game
without big damages. This way Terran can expand and play without
having the entire earth focusing him early.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well, 1.5k for infestor tech is pretty heavy...^^ should be 1k
max, rather make the next step more expensive. As long as primal
requires a lot of eco you force zerg to go eco or get owned by
even a weak eco T1 push (as they should, they fucking all-inned
and failed).
#Post#: 442--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 18, 2020, 5:58 am
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Sure my numbers were random ones. We need to tweak them a lot
for sure!!
I have no competences about scaling cost^^. I just tried to give
an idea of a path we can take. If we remove armor 2 we need to
scale the other lvls x)
Obviously Adam jumped on it immediatly without thinking about
tweaking numbers xD. Big bait lol
#Post#: 447--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Mehaperson
Date: November 18, 2020, 8:28 am
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--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> ... Not a fan tbh.
>
> As much as I hated the chemical, if you wanted to win roach
players, getting 3 chemicals and auto-casting walls was the best
way.
>
> 10HP removed from the tar roach... 20% of its HP... not gonna
do anything.
>
> Roaches with tar rush on creep, with speed upgrades, too, you
cannot move forward as terran unless you have RIDICOULUS DPS
output. I wouldn't get a firebat for 30 gas, let alone 50. If it
didn't require T2 it could be a nice (OP) counter to the
constant stream of harrassment so many zerg love to send to
someone.
>
> I'm gonna talk about the issue with roach again.
>
> Zerg all-in by building full spawners and upgrading capacity
before getting any eco, then, if some terran somehow manages to
hang on to his low ground, build an army and push, even with the
shittiest eco zerg can afford Armor 1 & 2, and from the spawners
they lose they gain supply to build roach... Yeah, it FURTHER
demolishes their already shitty eco, but the terrans don't have
good eco either from the early game allin.
>
> For zerg this is a great patch! Stupid OP firebat is gone (the
one where 4-5 can take a big spine), chemical plant is gone, so
you will not see 20 lvl walls at 30 minutes, and zerg's go-to
unit, the roach, only got a 20% HP nerf on their little minion.
>
> Even for my zerg (I rather quit the game than making roaches),
this patch is good, with the stupid firebat gone and chemical
plant gone, only italis is an issue for the ultralisk, so I feel
confident I can go for ultra tech instead of brutalisk like I
did before.
>
> I consider myself as an above average zerg, and even I miss
transfusions regularly, don't think it will be too big of an
issue for me. Though the design probably isn't too great I
guess.
>
> Just remove roach altogether. Zerg has to make eco for primal,
if they don't do so, they will die before reaching it. For roach
zerg doesn't have to make eco, so they will just all-in into
all-in like they do now and, as much as I despice the current
firebat, it's nice when someone rolls over those noobs with a
ball of firebats. Transitioning from T1 into chemical plants is
boring as fuck, but at least it's a win. If terran don't improve
I see myself losing games to zerg that all-in, then all-in again
and it's not a game I want to play.
>
> I prefer the current patch over this proposal, ideally I
wanted a patch where you need to win with T1, but with the
insufficient roach nerf I don't feel like you can win with T1,
and your fallback options are gone, too.
>
> I think even if T1 was the only way to win, most people would
still AFK, I think sadly even I failed to properly evaluate this
point when discussing future changes.
>
> There is too many bad players, maybe try buffing their skill?
;)
>
> Bunkers are actually easy to break for zerg if they eco well,
and if italis was gone you could do so much with hydras, but
instead you propose to take away the defenders 8% dmg reduction?
Yeah, it will make it easier for the zerg... in a no brain way,
this is exactly what we didn't want! Or I didn't want at least.
>
> I've said this before on heXnab discord, I was expecting too
much and I already knew I was going to get disappointed. Here we
are :/
>
--- End Quote ---
>Roaches with tar rush on creep, with speed upgrades, too, you
cannot move forward as Terran unless you have RIDICULOUS DPS
output. I wouldn't get a firebat for 30 gas, let alone 50. If it
didn't require T2 it could be a nice (OP) counter to the
constant stream of harassment so many Zerg love to send to
someone.
Right, so he addressed this by reducing tar roach hp and adding
light armour to them making firebats a great way to reduce
surface area of your marines (which normally gets them killed to
begin with), and by having the +15 to light armour bonus. To my
understanding, as soon as a roach dies it immediately burns to
ash instead of behaving as an additional or replacement roach.
As far as the you not wanting to build firebats thing, I can't
convince you to do it, if you don't feel like you want it then
you don't want it. In my opinion at least, that isn't a good
hill to stand on if you're trying to make a point.
>For Zerg this is a great patch! Stupid OP firebat is gone (the
one where 4-5 can take a big spine), chemical plant is gone, so
you will not see 20 lvl walls at 30 minutes, and zerg's go-to
unit, the roach, only got a 20% HP nerf on their little minion.
Well, since walls gain 2x armour per upgrade, level 10 walls are
pretty much level 20 walls, which you can get sooner than 30
minutes I believe, maybe, depends on what your gas income is and
what you spend it on.
>Zerg all-in by building full spawners and upgrading capacity
before getting any eco, then, if some terran somehow manages to
hang on to his low ground, build an army and push, even with the
shittiest eco zerg can afford Armor 1 & 2, and from the spawners
they lose they gain supply to build roach... Yeah, it FURTHER
demolishes their already shitty eco, but the terrans don't have
good eco either from the early game allin.
Why is this a problem? From my understanding, if a Terran does
some how hold onto his low ground while the other two bunker in
with 1 gas, then the zerg can't press due to the lack of eco
which drives the game towards the direction of, the low ground
terran can either aggress vs the zerg solo with the energy
support of his peers, or he can start going towards ion along
with them. What makes RTS's fun to begin with is the multitude
of different strategies you can play, not speed run if it
doesn't work go next.
>I prefer the current patch over this proposal, ideally I wanted
a patch where you need to win with T1, but with the insufficient
roach nerf I don't feel like you can win with T1, and your
fallback options are gone, too.
I disagree seeing as how you can still win the game with t1s
with roaches being how they are currently, nothings changed in
the regard except roaches are a little less threatening with
mini roach hps being less. As for the fall back plan, I don't
think zerg has enough dps output with armour 2 to beat increased
regen/double armour up walls without sacrificing even further
eco for attack upgrades, which sort of gives other terran time
to, you guessed it, ion for the win.
>Bunkers are actually easy to break for zerg if they eco well,
and if italis was gone you could do so much with hydras, but
instead you propose to take away the defenders 8% dmg reduction?
Yeah, it will make it easier for the zerg... in a no brain way,
this is exactly what we didn't want! Or I didn't want at least.
"Bunkers are actually easy to break for zerg if they eco well"
is like saying, "Terran can kill zerg hive really easily if they
eco well". The objective here is for both sides to prevent this
as far as im aware, so like, whats your point here?
I disagree with the no brain statement here as well, simply
because the purpose of the zerg is to out eco and over power in
the late game, which goes true to their lore/name "zerg". If the
big brain statement here was to use hydras/infestors healing
torras/spores, then that sort of takes away from the late game
steam rolling everything i'd say. Like I said earlier, it'll be
good early/early mid/mid game, where attack ups aren't that high
and armour values+regen+repairs can keep up. At some point
during the late game, the zerg needs to just walk over them or
nothings changed patch or no patch.
Though I can see the argument being made of, "but zergs don't
eco for the late game because they roach up and win games atm",
to which I reply, yeah, have you seen the current game style?
Zergs can roach/ravator and force terrans off low ground because
terrans don't play aggressive and try to chem up and "out dps"
zerg dps with wall upgrades. That's the meta and it falls short
cause players don't know what to do after they get chems, most
of the time they just start stacking italis and tech towards
elites rather than just ioning. As you stated earlier one guy
flamed you for ecoing instead of roaching up and losing to
firebats. That's meta atm, and you break that meta by out ecoing
their eco and using infestors to infuse/slow down at the big
spine (sort of what like adam has been saying), which is
hilarious btw.
All in all, the sort of feel that I get from your post leans
towards a simpler homogeneous game (which you've already stated
in another forum thread). However, I disagree with this as well.
Complexity is a good thing, over complexity and over simplicity
are not. Balance in all things amirite? The key here is to make
it so the complexity is met with a proper learning curve, rather
than one that's too steep, which can be challenging especially
if your audience is lacking deductive reasoning and the will to
get beaten multiple times to learn the game(which is why you see
RTS's falling out of the market as of late because FPS are very
straight forward, shoot the other guy before he shoots you) and
even then you see newer FPS's release with complexity such as
perks, talents, ultras, skills, etc.
These are all obviously just my opinion and if people truly feel
roaches are too strong, then remove/ nerf them and let primals
serve the role, and since the firebat changes seem to address
the roaches, with their removal/nerfs, remove firebats as well
since they will effectively no longer serve a purpose since
nerfs will allow t1 marines to fight them without the firebats.
Explain to me why a tier 1 basic unit should compete vs 2 armour
tiers of units again?
#Post#: 448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: ExtraLemon
Date: November 18, 2020, 8:39 am
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--- Quote ---
> Explain to me why a tier 1 basic unit should compete vs 2
armour tiers of units again?
--- End Quote ---
Zerg has 5 tiers, 6 if you count starting tier of armor, Terran
has 3 tiers of marines. If every tier only killed 1 tier of zerg
armor then Terran would need to have elites to kill Primals,
which is obviously not the case.
#Post#: 449--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 18, 2020, 8:43 am
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--- Quote from: ExtraLemon link ---
>
> [quote]Explain to me why a tier 1 basic unit should compete vs
2 armour tiers of units again?
--- End Quote ---
Zerg has 5 tiers, 6 if you count starting tier of armor, Terran
has 3 tiers of marines. If every tier only killed 1 tier of zerg
armor then Terran would need to have elites to kill Primals,
which is obviously not the case.
[/quote]
This person has a well-functioning brain.
-Signed, <heXnab>Speed
Now he will call me out on not knowing my lefts and rights x)
#Post#: 450--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 18, 2020, 8:45 am
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I am too lazy to answer to Mehaperson.
All answers are in previous threads.
If you can't understand the core of the game, i can't help you.
#Post#: 451--------------------------------------------------
Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
DIR By: Mehaperson
Date: November 18, 2020, 8:57 am
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--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> [quote author=ExtraLemon link=topic=58.msg448#msg448
date=1605710381]
> [quote]Explain to me why a tier 1 basic unit should compete vs
2 armour tiers of units again?
--- End Quote ---
Zerg has 5 tiers, 6 if you count starting tier of armor, Terran
has 3 tiers of marines. If every tier only killed 1 tier of zerg
armor then Terran would need to have elites to kill Primals,
which is obviously not the case.
[/quote]
This person has a well-functioning brain.
-Signed, <heXnab>Speed
Now he will call me out on not knowing my lefts and rights x)
[/quote]
Edit: to clarify, I know I said, "why a tier 1 basic unit should
compete vs 2 armour tiers of units", that's counting A1 and A2,
not starting at A0, don't be petty if you planned on it. T1
units shouldn't steamroll vs A2 units without a power up(vets)
or an additional unit(firebats).
Except below:
t1 > A0 A1 (basic units/low techs)
t2 > A2 A3 (Advanced tech/specialized units)
t3 > A4 A5 (Absolute pinnacle of tech for both sides)
How is this a misunderstanding? Is this not an idea worth
exploring?
--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
>
> I am too lazy to answer to Mehaperson.
>
> All answers are in previous threads.
>
> If you can't understand the core of the game, i can't help
you.
>
--- End Quote ---
To my understanding the core game play is beat the zerg before
the zerg beats you. How is having different ways to achieve this
a bad thing?
Edit: I already stated im all for the racing aspect of the game,
not for turtling, all the ion cannoning that I stated earlier
can be beaten in the mid/late game since Zerg could get free eco
along with the chem removal/construction yard changes.
Also, in my opinion, if you guys aren't going to have a
productive discussion and instead reply with things like, well,
what you normally reply with, you're not really helping anybody
out, even yourselves.
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