URI:
   DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Zerg Hex Forum
  HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       *****************************************************
   DIR Return to: Balance Discussion
       *****************************************************
       #Post#: 425--------------------------------------------------
       Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: WMaster
       Date: November 17, 2020, 3:53 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       It took me a while to read through the explosion of balance
       discussions. I read about 6 hours a day for a few days while
       writing notes, tried any longer but my brain just stopped lol.
       I’m also not the fastest reader and do try to keep it somewhat
       memorized. However I decided I read enough and started writing a
       balance proposal. So here it is. Thanks everyone for your
       participation.
       Intro
       First I’d like to note that in the past I’ve been trying to
       balancing the game while allowing for spots the be filled by
       newer players, effectively balancing around a 4v2 game. However
       as I see it now it’s better to balance with equal skill across
       the board. When pro vs pro have an even fight, then if skill is
       linear, average vs average should also have an even fight.
       --- Quote from: GrumpyKitten link ---
       > The main thing that i want to emphasize is that it is near
       impossible to balance an asymmetrical game. It will always boil
       down on individuals skill levels.
       --- End Quote ---
       And skill is also not that easy to define. There are different
       kind of skills players can have. A player individual skills
       could counter another players skillset. It’s hard to determine
       who’s better in a Rock Paper Scissor scenario. However if Rock
       becomes a Burning Rock we’d have a clear winner. Players can
       improve their decisions and refine their skillset of a cerain
       game, allowing to be able to counter more inexperienced players.
       For some maybe obvious, but I would say it’s better to balance
       around a pro vs pro setting than a new vs new setting.
       Experienced players have in general more game knowledge and/or
       skill than newer players and will most often use this to their
       advantage to win. So often win stats can determine how players
       compare to one another experience wise. And it’s the core game
       knowledge which is important for balancing a game. Developers
       like myself do not necessarily know more about that. And that is
       why I value any input. Sometimes favoring opinions and arguments
       from those with more experience.
       Not to say newer players input can’t be important, lots of
       little experience still add up to much experience. And it’s also
       important to know how a game feels to play.
       But I’ve also read a statement that new players want an easy to
       execute method to win, to which I would say that you would also
       have to face that method at times, and that would make it a bit
       counter intuitive. Unless of course you avoid such situations..
       --- Quote from: Avion link ---
       > The point is to get better, not to have the option to phone it
       in.
       --- End Quote ---
       Great to still see you Avion. And I agree, with at times some
       relax moments.
       With that, on to some balancing.
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I feel like we should address Firebat and its tech first, it has
       been reported and discussed a lot. Also Roach and about high
       ground bunker will be covered.
       Firebat and Chemical Plant issues:
       - A valid Firebat strategy is to bunker in, rush Chemical Plant,
       and wait. It does not require much effort and is not risky, yet
       Zerg can’t do much against it.
       - A Firebat push strategy is boring to execute.
       - Firebats are too hard to kill.
       - Firebats serve a similar purpose with Marines.
       - Firebats have a separate tech path.
       - Firebats ignore micro and energy management that makes the
       game unique and challenging.
       - Without much risk, Firebats can be made too eary.
       Suggestions were:
       - Completely remove Firebat and Chemical Plant.
       - Change Hydra and Strikeling damage reduction to type from
       Armored to Structures.
       - Decrease Firebat armor.
       - Remove Firebat bonus damage vs Structures.
       - Have Firebats require a Buggo to require some offensive play.
       - Make Chemical Plant output depend on Refineries taken.
       - Make Firebat an Armory tech.
       - Make Firebat play a tank role.
       Removal of Entities
       As Oayoo made it clear that I shouldn’t be affraid removing
       things from the game, especially when they are just not working.
       Unless an entity has not been used a lot, removal can create a
       feeling of loss for those who were still playing with them. A
       question as of why they couldn’t just have been balanced better
       could be a response. Adam wouldn’t be the only one to describe a
       removal to be an extreme measure. A more comfortable decision
       would be to revamp/rework a certain entity. Giving it a
       different purpose, like suggested for Firebats to become a tank
       instead of a damage dealer. But sometimes, and more often in RTS
       games, removal is for the better.
       Chemical Plant
       More veteran players have told that the game was more enjoyable
       in the past. Gas was a precious resource and at times you were
       in a situation where you needed shatter yesterday. With the
       coming of the Chemical Plant you’re now able to build a source
       of Gas safely within your inner base. Yes it costs a lot to get,
       but that’s also just looking at numbers to go up, a waiting
       game. I can see Zerg Hex go without the Chemical Plant, or
       perhaps a re-implementation later. It will likely draw much more
       attention to the Converter, of course the use of this structure
       can be discussed too.
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Firebats
       Before going into Firebats, I’d like to inform about some
       general game aspects relevant for Zerg Hex.
       Swarm Rate
       The rate at which a new units reach a defined area. Units
       marching one by one have a lower swarm rate than a grouped
       march.
       Push Power
       Affected by Swarm Rate and Time to Kill. With a swarm rate of 1
       per 5 sec and time to kill of 3 sec, you’ll be able to push
       forward for 2 seconds every 5 seconds. As GrumpyKitten pointed
       out that not just energy use, but also DPS that matters in Zerg
       Hex, especially for pushes. Note that attack range does not
       affect this when considering instant attacks. Pushing units are
       only occupied during attack, if able to kill from further
       distances, they’ll also aquire new targets from a further
       distance.
       Overwelming
       When Push Power is negative. Swarming units win time not being
       attacked while being in attacking range. This happens more often
       with lower DPS. However it is less possible with Shattering
       Laser or Firebat’s area of attack.
       Risk being attacked
       Swarmed units risk being attacked when Time to Kill takes longer
       than Time to Reach from moment of attack. Where moment of attack
       is affected by attack range and Overwelming.
       Firebats have very high DPS and thus a great Push Power. Shorter
       range so they risk being attacked a bit faster. But because
       Firebats have an area attack, it cannot be overwelmed like a
       single target unit would, the deciding factor for Firebats to
       take damage would just be the Time to Kill vs the Time to Reach
       from its max range. And Time to Kill is quite short for almost
       all Zerg units.
       Currently Firebats have almost everything the Terran needs for
       pushing. High armor, high health, high damage, bonus damage to
       structures, reduced damage from Strikelings and Hydralisks. It’s
       just a far better option to push with than Veteran Marines or
       perhaps even Elites. Combined with a low mineral cost and an
       easy to attain gas cost they can just be thrown into battle
       while you build up the next wave.
       [center][attachimg=1][/center]
       Almost all can agree that Firebats are too strong. And some say
       even if they’re nerfed, they don’t serve a special purpose, they
       would just be some Marine with a different brand. Some would
       like to see them mixed in with a Marine army. They would
       naturally be at the front, so I like the idea for them becoming
       a Tank.
       Firebat Attack
       Perhaps we could endorse Firebat’s ability to counter swarms of
       fast to kill units. There have been issues with mass slowlings
       being very effective and causing lags. ShinraBanshou therefore
       suggested limiting spawner counts similar to Strikelings.
       However I’d much rather have a counter unit so that it doesn’t
       go uncontested and become such a problem.
       We could discuss the possibility of Firebats dealing more damage
       to Light units, these are Zerg units up to Tanklings. Hydralisks
       would have to be changed to remove the Light qualification.
       Roaches would be where they fall off in offensive strength.
       They could still be useful as tank against Roaches. This because
       Roaches can then not get kills to spawn Tar Roaches to get out
       of hand. My proposal is to make Tar Roaches be Light units so
       Firebats are even better against them combined with Marines. We
       could even go as far as to make Firebats burn away Tar from the
       Roaches, removing their Tar upgrades when hit. This would make
       them a more direct counter.
       For actual damage values I’d start with something like 15 to
       Light and 5 by default.
       Firebat Tech
       It has been suggested to integrate Firebats within the Armory
       tech. It could be done with a low cost research at the Armory
       such that Firebats can be made a bit sooner in scenarios where
       you’re facing early pressure. Or it could be with Tier 2
       Equipment. Tier 2 would then be relevant when facing mass
       Slowlings or encountering Primals.
       Firebat Tank
       Firebats might still be too durable even while tank becomes
       their main role. I propose to decrease their HP and replace some
       armor with continuous regeneration. The replacement shifts
       attention from damage per attack to damage per second, it’s
       quite similar, but it also allows Firebats to recover from
       battle much faster. Also Hydralisks will be able to deal more
       damage and do not have to reach a certain damage per attack
       threshold, with enough of them you’re able to kill the
       front-line tanks. Values for Firebat could be 100 HP, 2 Armor
       and 5HP/s continuous regeneration. They’ll be able to tank most
       of the early-mid game, until Primals get a few attack upgrades.
       They don’t really scale well into the later game so I think they
       could use an upgrade at the Armory which adds 200 HP or even
       more. Also note that Large Spines still deal bonus damage to
       Armored, 110 as opposed to 70. Could also be discussed if that
       needs changing too.
       Firebat Energy
       It wouldn’t be great if Firebats were still to drain gas with it
       becoming a harder resource to get. Suggested was to make them
       use energy. With them using energy it can be difficult to
       recharge them during battle while they are more at the front,
       they could be given a higher energy capacity, but they might
       also be replenished with Energy Warp. I guess we’ll have to find
       the right numbers by playing some with them. Note that they are
       also most likely the first to die, so giving them too much
       capacity can result in more energy losses. For now I think
       somewhere around 30 attacks worth of energy should be alright.
       Making them deplete a full load at the same time Marines would
       without Conservation. I think making them use 2 energy per shot
       would make them effecient energy users.
       Firebat Cost
       I’m thinking of making Firebats cost a little more gas, it will
       delay some tech if made early, and later you can use excess gas
       to strengthen your army.
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Roach
       Some reported Roach issues:
       - Counter to T1 Marines
       - Combined with Tar Roach spawns they are better than Primals
       and Ultralisks considering costs.
       - Primal Tech cost much so players can get stuck with Roaches.
       - Can be made too early.
       Tar Infection
       Personally I don’t mind Roaches being an affordable counter to
       T1 Marines. They become strong when grouped together, like all
       units, but with Roach Infection more so. In a favorable
       engagement killing 10 Marines they produce 500HP worth of
       addition Tar Roaches directly on site of battle. Kills lead to
       more kills. Fun mechanic, but it also means threat grows more
       exponentially than with other units. Without surface area
       limitations they would become more dangerious than any other
       spawner units. Luckily there are many ways to limit surface
       area, it’s only more of a problem in an open field when pushing.
       Lowering the effectiveness of spawnlings will reduce how much
       threat goes out of hand. I was thinking of a reduction in
       health.
       Tar Rush
       Reducing the spawling’s health will also reduce the total health
       once Tar Rush is researched. Currently a Veteran Marine with
       Penetrating Laser needs 28 shots to kill both Roach and Tar
       Roach, this is the same as required for a Primal. Yes you’ll
       need Veterans when Primals show up, but Zerg will need Roaches
       when Veterans show up. It’s a mixed bag. Once Zerg upgrades,
       they’ll likely sprinkle in a few Primals to prevent easy pushes
       and then go back to Roaches. There’s not a real obvious
       solution, increasing Veteran Marines’ damage does allows for
       faster killing, but it only makes Roaches compare better against
       Primals, higher damage gives favor to health as opposed to
       armor. Even facing Elites you’re better off creating Roaches. I
       think this is what Oayoo meant by denoting Roaches counter
       Elites.
       However I created a sheet and found some helpful info. At 3 and
       4 damage there is a significant difference between how many hits
       required for Roach (total) and Primal, almost double. And 4
       damage being double as effective as 3. My idea is to increase
       Veteran’s Shatter damage by one to make this difference more
       apparent.
       Veterans without shatter kill per shot 3.57% of both Roach
       (total) and Primal.
       With Shatter damage at 2, Veterans kill per shot 4.43% of a
       Roach (total) and 4.48% of a Primal.
       With Shatter damage at 3, Veterans kill per shot 5.28% of a
       Roach (total) and 4.48% of a Primal.
       With Shatter damage at 4, Veterans kill per shot 6.75% of a
       Roach (total) and 5.37% of a Primal.
       Sounds a bit strange, buffing Marines to make Primals more
       effective. But when designing games this is totally acceptable.
       Of course there needs to be some counteraction for the increase
       in power, but the increase in difference is important. I would
       actually say buffing Primals from 110 HP to 120 HP would provide
       an even better result.
       Putting changes 120 HP Primals, 40 HP Tar Roach and +1 Shatter
       damage together results in Veterans dealing 7.18% and 4.87%
       damage per shot with Penetrating Laser. Making Primals +47% more
       resillient than Roaches to Veterans. I would also prefer
       increasing Elites Shatter damage by one, so it has at least some
       effect on Ultralisk with Penetrating Laser. Elites vs
       Roach/Primal would then be 13.4% and 12.0%, not a big
       difference, but Elites will have a great pushing power to both
       of them, so Zerg would be adviced to tech up anyway.
       I’ll attach the sheet I made to allow making your own
       calculations with it, or to double check mine of course.
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Beastling
       This is another reported unit having no use. To which I can
       agree. I didn’t quite do any math when implementing it. Turns
       out a Slowling Spawner produces up to 25 HP / 4 sec or 187.5 HP
       / 30 sec, while a Beastling Spawner produces 200 HP / 30 sec,
       but you get 5 Slowling Spawners with the same supply, so
       choosing Slowlings is more than 4 times as effective. Granted
       they are more durable and that can result into a few more
       attacks, but it generally that doesn’t happen. Point being, they
       need a buff or removal, removal as an option because they were
       likely not used that much.
       As a buff, 20 supply of Slowlings produce 375 HP / 12 seconds,
       so how about spawning Beastlings every 12 seconds while removing
       its Light attribute. They still have 1 armor and it perhaps
       allows to choose for something better when facing Firebats. Also
       they have a much higher HP density which makes grouping them
       more dangerious.
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Heavy Bunker
       Even the Omegalisk especially designed to put an end to
       fortification can have trouble doing so. I think the primary
       reason for this is the Construction Yard with 4 Defenders.
       Without Defenders, the Construction Yard aura gives 40% damage
       reduction. This translates into 167% effective health. But with
       4 Defenders each adding 8% reduction for a total of 72%
       reduction, this translates into 357% effective health. Which is
       quite huge. From just +67% to +257% just by adding Defenders.
       This combined with sufficient Fortification upgrades is enough
       to buy time to kill an Omegalisk.
       Note that damage is reduced, and so repairs are quicker to
       recover from it, making any form of healing appear more
       effective too.
       Concluding that with the ability to upgrade Fortification a lot,
       something needs to change to prevent unbeatable bunkers.
       Proposing to replace the damage reduction gained from Defenders
       with something else. Maybe a regeneration bonus to structures
       witin range, while disabling the Defender’s ability to repair.
       Something like this would be highly effective early, but fall
       off later. An armor boost could also work. To disable repair
       would prevent Defenders to unlink by accident, previously
       prevented with hold position.
       Defensive Play
       --- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
       > The problem right now is that if you play defensive with a
       yard opening, you will be able to do MORE DAMAGES than an
       aggressive build.
       --- End Quote ---
       I certainly tried designing so a defensive playstyle would also
       be an option, it could be fun for more passive players to also
       contribute somehow, to have some more variety. But I guess they
       shouldn’t have had the power to wipe out the Zerg so easily.
       Poor design on my part. I’ve been trying to come up with ideas
       to allow defensive players to support offensive players. I have
       one idea I myself like, I’ll post it in the New Ideas section.
       For now I feel like the Fortification upgrade won’t be that
       effective without the Chemical Plant, it could be upgraded at
       the start, but that does hurt in offensive power. Proposing to
       increase armor gain by 1 for walls and gates per upgrade. It
       will be stronger earlier yet can easily be negated with later
       Zerg units.
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Summary
       Here are the ideas put together. Hope I’m going the right
       direction with this. It is not final and so it is open for
       debate.
       - Removing Chemical Plant
       - Revamping Firebat
       [li]Set damage to 5 and 15 to Light.
       - No bonus damage to Structures.
       - Using 2 energy per shot with 60 energy max.
       - Usable as tank. 100HP, 2 armor and 5 HP/s continuous
       regeneration.
       - Making them cost more gas heavy and less minerals. Could be
       from 40/30 to 30/50.
       - Require Tier 2 Equipment.
       - Add upgrade at Armory to increase HP by 200.
       [/li]
       - Veteran Marine
       [li]Increase Shattering Laser base damage from 2 to 3.
       [/li]
       - Elite Marine
       [li]Increase Shattering Laser base damage from 4 to 5.
       [/li]
       - Buff Primal Roach
       [li]Increase HP from 110 to 120.
       [/li]
       - Nerf Tar Roach (Spawnling)
       [li]Decrease HP from 50 to 40.
       - Make qualify as Light.
       [/li]
       - Adjust Beastling
       [li]Spawn Time from 30 to 12 seconds
       - Remove qualification Light
       [/li]
       - Hydralisk
       [li]Remove qualification Light
       [/li]
       - Construction Yard - Defender Link
       [li]Remove bonus damage reduction.
       - Give bonus regeneration equal to 50% of Defender’s repair
       rate.
       - Disable Defender repair while linked.
       [/li]
       - Fortication Upgrade
       [li]Increase armor gain for walls and gates from 1 to 2
       [/li]
       I think with these changes might also result in Ultralisks
       having more use like it has before. Torralisks might now
       completely take over the role of the Omegalisk, because bunkers
       will be less effective. Let me know if that needs changing
       together with this or that it can wait for another patch.
       Have a great day,
       WMaster
       #Post#: 426--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: RickSanchez
       Date: November 17, 2020, 4:24 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       i am very hyped for this. Great changes beside leaving italis
       which can maybe still lead into bunker forever. also maybe
       increase roachspanwer cost also by like 10 to 20.
       Can't wait to see it live
       when you will update?
       #Post#: 427--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: RickSanchez
       Date: November 17, 2020, 5:13 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       One other thing to consider is that zerg doesnt have to be
       afraid of some super late doom push and therefore has not to eco
       as hard as now, which means z can get more infestors into mass
       transfuse which will doom alot of terrans these days (if they
       even push at all). maybe that needs a nerf too like more
       energyusage or make it cost minerals
       #Post#: 428--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: Adam
       Date: November 17, 2020, 5:17 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Great changes, lets go with them
       --- Quote from: RickSanchez link ---
       >
       > One other thing to consider is that zerg doesnt have to be
       afraid of some super late doom push and therefore has not to eco
       as hard as now, which means z can get more infestors into mass
       transfuse which will doom alot of terrans these days (if they
       even push at all). maybe that needs a nerf too like more
       energyusage
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       As of now zergs that know how to use transfuse can be counted on
       fingers so I dont think it will ever become a problem
       #Post#: 429--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: Oayoo
       Date: November 17, 2020, 5:47 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I think you are going into the right path Wmaster !!!! WP
       Now we will obviously need a lot of test in game to see how it
       will works.
       In addition to removing chemical, i think you should not block
       the gases of the dead players. That way Terran can try to take
       sneaky gases ^^ It would really be helpful !
       I would ask too for a little speed nerf on Tar Roaches and i
       fear that the high regen of Firebats might be a little strong
       (we need test on this).
       5 hp regen may be a little too much (1-2 hp regen maybe ? need
       test !!!!)
       Sorry for multiple edits.
       #Post#: 430--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: Mehaperson
       Date: November 17, 2020, 8:34 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Over all I think these balance changes are good, it switches the
       core game back to what it was which is to my understand is a
       race against the Zerg.
       Some key things from what I understood, ion racing is still a
       completely viable option as italis and multiple armor wall
       upgrades exist. With the added regen this is going to be
       incredibly powerful in the early game/early mid but will
       obviously drop off ridiculously hard in the later stages as the
       damage reduction no longer exists, which is fine. Removal of
       italis and making ion damage heal-able would prevent this but
       that's up for discussion.
       With the reworked firebats, in my opinion, this adds a new
       element to the game that hasn't really existed for terran before
       which is unit composition/group microing. Obviously before
       people slow pushed with shock troopers and marines, and doom
       pushes, but A moving isn't exactly what i'd call microing.
       Seeing this now it reminds me of when Terran went
       hellbat/marines vs zergs in ladder during HotS. Microing your
       hellbats to soak baneling/ling damage forcing zerg to micro
       banelings and terrans to split marines while hellbats got
       freehits. This, from what I'm predicting anyways, can
       potentially be seen when the roaches start to show up and the
       firebats can be used as a wall to reduce the surface area and
       burn the tar roaches that really punish poor micro/bad play.
       This will cause zerg to go into primal and ultralisks to sort of
       eat through this, but that requires in game testing to see if
       this opinion of mine towards this holds up.
       (inb4 somebody comes in and says, "you dont need firebats with
       good micro ^^", to which I reply, not everybody has top 10
       diamond/low masters apm/microing and games shouldn't be balanced
       at the top level, nor the bottom level, but around the middle as
       that's where most of your consistent player base is at)
       Removal of the chem plant is huge in a good way. This punishes
       passive play(which is always good game design), and forces
       players to move towards a more aggressive play style. Obviously
       as I mentioned earlier, players can still ion rush(which should
       be looked at if it becomes an issue).
       Overall, it sounds like games won't last longer than 30 minutes
       unless zerg is hurting and terran is just toying with them.
       Good changes and I hope that this is well received by the player
       base/community with some more feedback to continually push the
       game in the right direction.
       #Post#: 431--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: Oayoo
       Date: November 18, 2020, 2:39 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       There is a possibility for the wall upgrade buff to be abused,
       we need to test it in games. It should be fine without the
       defenders buff but i wanna try ^^
       We all know that a lot of players will immediatly try to create
       a new bunker strategy out of this because Italis are still here.
       We need test in game !  can't wait^^
       #Post#: 432--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: Speed
       Date: November 18, 2020, 4:06 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       ... Not a fan tbh.
       As much as I hated the chemical, if you wanted to win roach
       players, getting 3 chemicals and auto-casting walls was the best
       way.
       10HP removed from the tar roach... 20% of its HP... not gonna do
       anything.
       Roaches with tar rush on creep, with speed upgrades, too, you
       cannot move forward as terran unless you have RIDICOULUS DPS
       output. I wouldn't get a firebat for 30 gas, let alone 50. If it
       didn't require T2 it could be a nice (OP) counter to the
       constant stream of harrassment so many zerg love to send to
       someone.
       I'm gonna talk about the issue with roach again.
       Zerg all-in by building full spawners and upgrading capacity
       before getting any eco, then, if some terran somehow manages to
       hang on to his low ground, build an army and push, even with the
       shittiest eco zerg can afford Armor 1 & 2, and from the spawners
       they lose they gain supply to build roach... Yeah, it FURTHER
       demolishes their already shitty eco, but the terrans don't have
       good eco either from the early game allin.
       For zerg this is a great patch! Stupid OP firebat is gone (the
       one where 4-5 can take a big spine), chemical plant is gone, so
       you will not see 20 lvl walls at 30 minutes, and zerg's go-to
       unit, the roach, only got a 20% HP nerf on their little minion.
       Even for my zerg (I rather quit the game than making roaches),
       this patch is good, with the stupid firebat gone and chemical
       plant gone, only italis is an issue for the ultralisk, so I feel
       confident I can go for ultra tech instead of brutalisk like I
       did before.
       I consider myself as an above average zerg, and even I miss
       transfusions regularly, don't think it will be too big of an
       issue for me. Though the design probably isn't too great I
       guess.
       Just remove roach altogether. Zerg has to make eco for primal,
       if they don't do so, they will die before reaching it. For roach
       zerg doesn't have to make eco, so they will just all-in into
       all-in like they do now and, as much as I despice the current
       firebat, it's nice when someone rolls over those noobs with a
       ball of firebats. Transitioning from T1 into chemical plants is
       boring as fuck, but at least it's a win. If terran don't improve
       I see myself losing games to zerg that all-in, then all-in again
       and it's not a game I want to play.
       I prefer the current patch over this proposal, ideally I wanted
       a patch where you need to win with T1, but with the insufficient
       roach nerf I don't feel like you can win with T1, and your
       fallback options are gone, too.
       I think even if T1 was the only way to win, most people would
       still AFK, I think sadly even I failed to properly evaluate this
       point when discussing future changes.
       There is too many bad players, maybe try buffing their skill? ;)
       Bunkers are actually easy to break for zerg if they eco well,
       and if italis was gone you could do so much with hydras, but
       instead you propose to take away the defenders 8% dmg reduction?
       Yeah, it will make it easier for the zerg... in a no brain way,
       this is exactly what we didn't want! Or I didn't want at least.
       I've said this before on heXnab discord, I was expecting too
       much and I already knew I was going to get disappointed. Here we
       are :/
       #Post#: 434--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: Oayoo
       Date: November 18, 2020, 4:37 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Best fix would be to remove Roaches and armor 2.
       Then, scale up the cost of:
       Armor 1(infests) around 1500/2000 ?
       Armor 2(primals) around 5000 ?
       Armor 3(ultralisks) around 6000 ?
       Armor 4(brutalisks) around 9000 ? (buff them, they are total
       garbage)
       That way, to make infestors you will need to commit more eco to
       transfuse and no more retarded roaches x)
       #Post#: 435--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Balance Take 1 – Firebat, Roach, Bunker, Beastling
   DIR By: Adam
       Date: November 18, 2020, 5:16 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       remove roach and lock festors behind 2k?
       XD
       then why even bother pretending that zerg should have any chance
       vs 2 players that know how to autocast t1 no matter how good he
       is?
       just make some mechanic that if 2 terrans build armory and tech
       lab with 2 charges before 12-14 min zergs hive explode, will be
       faster
       and one more thing - pls stop with shared eco argument as a way
       for zerg to fast rush primals, its not happening in random lobby
       with random teammate and we all know it and it has nothing to do
       with skill as it simply
       require lvl of communication unreachable with some random person
       u dont know (and lets not even get started on amout of people
       who dont communicate at all)
       *****************************************************
       Page 1 of 10
   DIR Next Page