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#Post#: 175--------------------------------------------------
Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: Turb007
Date: November 10, 2020, 2:05 am
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First off, I'd like to say that I've been enjoying this game on
and off over the years and I keep coming back to it, I
absolutely love it - Thanks for the game WMaster! With that
said, I'm not sure if I should post this in the balance section
or the new idea section so please move if needed.
Anyway, I really don't like how we have to play zerg vs good
players at all. I remember back when zerg was a bit more
stepping stone like.. Upgrade armor once, get some of those
units. Up it again, get some of those, etc. I personally really
liked that. The current strategy (this is against a good lobby
of atleast 2 good terrans on both sides) is to eco as hard as
you can with t1 spawner spam until you start getting pushed
hard, which is when you make the huge investment into roaches
and movement speed 1. This is fine if its around the 17 minute
mark and your eco is around 2-2.5k but good terrans are going to
start pushing hard around 12-14 minutes so I often find myself
needing to cut my eco and go into roaches "early". At this
point, the roaches are not to kill anyone, but to stay alive.
Try to recover eco as fast as possible, eco, eco, eco.... And
try to survive long enough for bruts and/or infused roaches.
This is because there is no real stepping stone anymore between
roaches and bruts anymore (though an argument could be made for
Ravators but those arent going to help you survive constant
pushes). This is an incredibly dicy battle against 2 good
terrans who know how to push through big spines and win the game
with t1 marines. Throw in a somewhat mediocre 3rd player, and
the zerg has no chance.
There are numerous ways to combat this, and I'm sure that one
person's idea of the "best" solution is something that another
player is going to hate, so maybe a poll for that would be the
best option.. Regardless, primal roaches and ultras are
near-worthless so hopefully we can all agree that they need
buffed (or cost less).
On another note, someone mentioned "needing a bugo" for
something somewhere else on this forum and that got me
wondering. What if (to solve the AFK 14 minute FB
strategy/problem) there would be a requirement for the chem
plant research to require both the armory and a bugo to be
obtained? That would require the terran to actually do some sort
of aggression instead of just bunkering up and AFKing and FB's
would also take longer to get. In addition to that, maybe make
it so that no matter who kills the starting hatchery closest to
the terran base, that specific terran gets the bugo (so zerg
can't deny the bugo by killing his own hatchery). I dont know..
What you guys think?
#Post#: 176--------------------------------------------------
Re: Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 10, 2020, 4:52 am
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I really like your ideas !!
We need these kind of things for Zerg hex :)
Of course, to allow this, Zerg musn't be able to deny the bugo
anymore by hitting themselves.
#Post#: 177--------------------------------------------------
Re: Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 10, 2020, 4:54 am
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--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
> Of course, to allow this, Zerg musn't be able to deny the bugo
anymore by hitting themselves.
--- End Quote ---
I disagree. Lasthittting Nest isnt that trivial and needs a well
timed attack if marines already firing. it is easy to miss.
#Post#: 178--------------------------------------------------
Re: Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 10, 2020, 4:57 am
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Right now buggo is just a little extra gas source.
Denying it is fun for zerg and a bit of a "wtf" for the terran,
but it's not a big deal.
If buggo is patched to be some sort of requirement for tech then
denying it becomes a huge deal and imo shouldn't be allowed
anymore.
#Post#: 183--------------------------------------------------
Re: Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: Turb007
Date: November 10, 2020, 12:12 pm
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--- Quote ---
> Of course, to allow this, Zerg musn't be able to deny the bugo
anymore by hitting themselves.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> If buggo is patched to be some sort of requirement for tech
then denying it becomes a huge deal and imo shouldn't be allowed
anymore.
--- End Quote ---
Thats the idea! As to how to implement that, maybe have a steep
supply penalty for the zerg if he destroys one of his own nests.
Maybe -135 supply? ;D
#Post#: 184--------------------------------------------------
Re: Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 10, 2020, 12:21 pm
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big off, -135 supply is basically game over for Zerg.
just disable deny possibility and it is fine i think.
#Post#: 185--------------------------------------------------
Re: Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: Turb007
Date: November 10, 2020, 12:24 pm
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That was meant to be a little sarcastic ;D Disabling zerg from
being able to target nests would probably be more realistic
#Post#: 190--------------------------------------------------
Re: Terran FB Tech Tree, Possible Zerg Change(s)
DIR By: GrumpyKitten
Date: November 10, 2020, 2:12 pm
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--- Quote from: Turb007 link ---
>
> That was meant to be a little sarcastic ;D Disabling zerg
from being able to target nests would probably be more realistic
>
--- End Quote ---
Yeah i like your ideas, and summary of the Zerg play currently.
It is really one dimensional.
On other topic i talked about something similar, but you
expressed it much better what i miss from the game:
This stepping stone like tech on the zerg. I mean half of the
units are useless at best, and borderline just hurts you if you
build them.
So yeah, i think of like: rework completely tankling. Make it
Armor 1 unit, and something (a lot of buff) to make is viable.
Make roach more expensive, so it is more like a 20-22 minute
unit when terran can get T2 marine tech + units.
So the way i think it should be:
Basic zerg units < a couple of T1 marine < Armor 1 units < T1
marine upgraded + armory + in huge numbers like 40+ < Armor 2
units < T2 marine < Armor 3 < T2 upgrades + armory + in huge
numbers < Armor 4 units < T3 marine < Armor 5 + maybe even some
"low tier" infestor units are more spammable so you get them
against T3 marine pushes.
I hope it is understandable, mostly i would like to see
something from each upgrade. Each is just stronger then
previous, so it "counters" the other one's tech.
It would be much more exciting, and more strategy based: if
terrans passive and dont push? Then zerg can eco, get higher
Armor units, and win.
If Zerg is greedy? Terran can cripple him with early push, then
go back for eco -> tech up -> killing blow on zerg.
I think this would make the game exciting and not just "can i
get a buggo before i turtle because roach?"
It would reward good terran players who manage eco - pressure on
zerg better.
On the chem - buggo thing:
First i bought this idea: nest not deniable, but you can only
build chem from the buggo. The problem is it is very limited how
much buggo you can get kinda early.
Also this would not stop players from turtle on 1 gas: they just
wall in, get like 20-25-30 reapers and clear the nest. You would
not build a lot of units on a 1 gas guy, but this is countered
by just 4 hydra too so...
I don't know how it would play out actually, the meta needs some
time to experience with, and settle.
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