DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Zerg Hex Forum
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Balance Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2304--------------------------------------------------
What people need to understand about balance.
By: guguizg Date: January 25, 2022, 12:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I see people complaining a lot about balance in game, in the
forum, on discord and pretty much anywhere. People needs to
understand that Wmaster's job at balancing the game was very
well done and i hope that with this post and comments everyone
can understand that. If you disagree, read the whole thing. If
you still disagree, you can comment down bellow. I'll also
review any balance chages suggestions and mainly point out why
they (probably) don't work.
First of all, the biggest challange with Zerg Hex balance is the
skill gap between players in a lobby. Try to compare this to
ladder, can you make a bronze league have a balanced game
against a grand master or even a lower league player like gold?
ZHex works similarly: you have inhouse games, in which people
have very similar skill level, and you have public lobbies, in
which a infinite combination of skills is possible, from a 6
noobs terrans vs 2 noob zergs, to noob terrans good zergs, good
terrans bad zergs, one good zerg and a bad one, etc. My point
is, it's pretty much impossible to make the game balanced in all
of those cenarios. In my opinion, zerg hex can only be truly
balanced if all the players in the lobby have similar skill
level.
Is zerg too weak? Yes and no.
Zerg can be overpowered on a few ocasions. For instance, a
unexperienced zerg when against a 'pro' player, can capacity
upgrade all spawners and go for full agression on 1 terran,
making it impossible to hold, pretty much no matter the terran's
skill. That strategy in a lobby full of noob terrans will work,
because there will be no one to punish them. Also, in a noob
zerg vs noob terran scenario, the zerg can also have the upper
hand, because new terran players struggle a lot handling
pressure and specially taking down big spines.
On the other hand, zerg is weak when there are enough
experienced terran players in the lobby, no matter what the
zerg's skill level is.
Finally, there are a few scenarios in which the game is actually
balanced. On normal game rules, if there are only 3-4 good
terrans on the lobby, good zergs can take them down. In clangame
rules, we figured out some basic rules to make the game also
pretty close to balanced - specially because the teams are
balanced.
So is the game balanced?
Yes, the game is balanced around a scenario in which there are
good and bad players in the lobby, but because the skill
difference among players is so big and unpredictable, the
specific scenario in which the game is balanced is unlikely to
happen.
How can the game be balanced then?
Well, sorry to say this but it can't, not for all the scenarios.
There are some very interesting balance changes proposed on
Turbo's post (it compiles his suggestions and other people's
too) that manage to increase the scenario range in which the
game is balanced and playable, but even so, there are a few
lobbies in which it won't work, and that's just how it is. And
that's how it's supposed to be, there shouldn't be a way for 6
noob terrans beat 2 good zergs or 6 good terrans loose to 2 noob
zergs (unless they're trolling). In my opinion, changes that try
to expand that "balanced scenario" are the way to go, but the
game should be mainly balanced around "pro" meta, just like
ladder games. Also, if there was a better ranking system, it
would be easier to create balanced teams and therefore a more
balanced match/lobby, so maybe thats one way to kind of balance
the game, just like ladder games xp.
---------------------------------------------
Discussing actual balance now
Before going down to suggestions that in my opinion won't work,
i need to say a few important concepts and maybe a few exemples:
Field of change: every change will affect different parts of the
game, I will separate them into main categories
- Economical changes. These are the hardest ones because it will
majorly impact the whole game. A small change will affect a lot,
as i discussed on one of the "Hex Science" posts. For instance,
reducing the zerg's first supply cost by 200 will have a huge
impact, because then every supply will be 200 minerals cheaper,
so in 10 supplies that's already 2.000 minerals. Besides, as eco
grows so fast for the zerg, that can make the eco difference to
what it is right now so big, that it breaks the entire game :D
- Unit changes: These generally have less impact on the game,
but still, changing a unit can completely shift the meta, wether
it is from zerg or terran, so gotta be careful with the
consequences of it. For exemple, if you buff roaches, terrans
will be encouraged to do way more t1 pushes (armory first),
before zerg has eco to get roaches.
- Defensive and offensive value changes: These are the changes
that affect the most differently players at each skill level.
Lets say you buff the big spine, increasing zerg's defensive
value. That probably wont affect most noob terrans as they never
push into the big spine anyway or noob zergs, as they usually
build all spawners in the front and don't transfuse it anyway,
but for high level play, that can change a lot.
- Others. Can't put everything in boxes, exept when there is a
"outside the boxes" box xD.
Time of affect: For what period of the game is the change ment
for, early game, mid game or lategame?
Well, even though a change can have a main period in which that
changes, it will change all of the other ones too. For instance,
if you make zerg's early game stronger, you end up affecting
midgame too, as the terrans could be weaker in that stage, the
zerg's eco might be higher, etc. Also, affecting the lategame,
will also change early and midgame too, because players will
make different choices knowing that the lategame now works
differently.
Non intended consequences: sometimes you want to change
something specific, and by doing that, you will break another
part of the game by accident. Let's say you nerf terran's
lategame to balance that stage of the game and it works, now the
zerg has the upper hand on lategame. But with that, you
encourage the terran not let the game reach that point, making
t1 and t2 pushes relatively stronger by accident. It's a dumb
exemple but should be enough to understand.
Ok, now it will be simpler to understand how a balance change
will interact with the game. I will review changes if you guys
put on the comments - this is a discussion so other people can
also help. I might also suggest a few and also analyse them.
At last, i'd like to say again that this is just my opinion and
i'm open to discussion and for you guys to prove me wrong :D
PS: Wmaster if you're reading this and you're willing to make
balance changes, contact me and i'll gather a team of "pros" to
respectfully discuss with you :D
#Post#: 2305--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: Turb007 Date: January 26, 2022, 1:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In response to 2nd paragraph:
Relating Zerg Hex to ladder and having GM's vs noobs, etc. There
is an issue here.. 2 GM's can beat +10 bronze players in a 2v10
quite easily. 2 very good terran players (relating to GM's in
ladder) + 4 noobs can not beat 2 noob zergs if the 2 good
players are capacitied at the start. Effectively creating a
scenario where (in relation to ladder) 2 GM's could not beat
6ish bronze players (assuming 2 bronze-level zerg players = 6
bronze players in hex, if that makes sense). You mention this in
paragraph 3 with 1 "pro" terran player, just pointing out that
it works vs 2. As you mention, this is also stupidly strong vs
noob terrans as they have no idea how to hold, just make 6
spawners, capacity everything, and f2 = game won.. Not fun for
noobs. Hence, the game is broken in those 2 scenarios. The only
reason for this is capacity, hence why a capacity change is
"needed" for balance.
"zerg is weak when there are enough experienced terran players
in the lobby, no matter what the zerg's skill level is."
Yes, hence my post on proposed changes.
"if there are only 3-4 good terrans on the lobby, good zergs can
take them down"
Huh? 4 "pro" terrans will not lose to any zergs. Me, Space, and
Naj have taken down the infamous Buggo + Ace duo consistantly in
the past with just a 3 stack (the game is currently balanced for
a 2v3.5 stack imo), zergs have no chance vs a true 4 stack.
"the specific scenario in which the game is balanced is unlikely
to happen... changes that try to expand that "balanced scenario"
are the way to go"
Agreed^^ Again, hence my (our, I should say; multiple people
helped me make that post) post on proposed changes.
"PS: Wmaster if you're reading this and you're willing to make
balance changes, contact me and i'll gather a team of "pros" to
respectfully discuss with you"
It's been years since hexnab members have offered this, so don't
get your hopes up :P
#Post#: 2306--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: Persephone Date: January 27, 2022, 7:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It's really not that hard to create two game modes, one for
casual play and one for experienced players who want to try
hard. As it is now, casual lobbies are heavily zerg favored
because most of the terrans really don't want to try at all to
do anything, and try hard lobbies are an absolute slaughter
where zerg is dead by 20.
Wmaster needs to make a casual mode where it's much easier for
terrans to take and hold 3 gas so they can at least do
something, and a pro mode where zerg can eco faster and terrans
have to all work together to win.
#Post#: 2311--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: guguizg Date: February 3, 2022, 10:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Turb007 link=topic=255.msg2305#msg2305
date=1643225100]
In response to 2nd paragraph:
Relating Zerg Hex to ladder and having GM's vs noobs, etc. There
is an issue here.. 2 GM's can beat +10 bronze players in a 2v10
quite easily.
[/quote]
I don't think there is a issue, 10 bronze players can worker
rush the 2 gms or do cheese, which is analogue to the capacity
upgrade and makes it impossible to hold...
[quote author=Turb007 link=topic=255.msg2305#msg2305
date=1643225100]
"if there are only 3-4 good terrans on the lobby, good zergs can
take them down"
Huh? 4 "pro" terrans will not lose to any zergs. Me, Space, and
Naj have taken down the infamous Buggo + Ace duo consistantly in
the past with just a 3 stack (the game is currently balanced for
a 2v3.5 stack imo), zergs have no chance vs a true 4 stack.
[/quote]
Yeah, that's why i didn't say "pro" terrans, i said "good" xp.
Also, i bet that the other terrans weren't completely useless,
as Buggo + Ace can win against a true 3 stack or against 4
"good" players.
#Post#: 2312--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: guguizg Date: February 3, 2022, 12:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Persephone link=topic=255.msg2306#msg2306
date=1643290865]
It's really not that hard to create two game modes, one for
casual play and one for experienced players who want to try
hard. As it is now, casual lobbies are heavily zerg favored
because most of the terrans really don't want to try at all to
do anything, and try hard lobbies are an absolute slaughter
where zerg is dead by 20.
Wmaster needs to make a casual mode where it's much easier for
terrans to take and hold 3 gas so they can at least do
something, and a pro mode where zerg can eco faster and terrans
have to all work together to win.
[/quote]
I guess if "terrans really don't want to try at all to do
anything", no different mode can fix that. There is tons of
content in the forum, on youtube, etc. to help people improve. I
wouldn't blame noob terran's suffering on Wmaster, except for
the capacity upgrade problem that has been discussed a lot. As
for "pro" lobbies, we came around that problem with clangame
rules, which can balance the game out a lot. Maybe adding
different game modes could make it more fun for all skill levels
though, i just don't see how that would work.
I believe that instead of making different game modes, if the
community was more united and the playerbase was bigger, there
could be "inhouse" games for all the skill levels, creating
lobbies with select people to make it balanced.
#Post#: 2314--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: Persephone Date: February 4, 2022, 4:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=guguizg link=topic=255.msg2312#msg2312
date=1643913448]
I guess if "terrans really don't want to try at all to do
anything", no different mode can fix that. There is tons of
content in the forum, on youtube, etc. to help people improve. I
wouldn't blame noob terran's suffering on Wmaster, except for
the capacity upgrade problem that has been discussed a lot. As
for "pro" lobbies, we came around that problem with clangame
rules, which can balance the game out a lot. Maybe adding
different game modes could make it more fun for all skill levels
though, i just don't see how that would work.
I believe that instead of making different game modes, if the
community was more united and the playerbase was bigger, there
could be "inhouse" games for all the skill levels, creating
lobbies with select people to make it balanced.
[/quote]
LOL. I love how you put quotation marks around my sentence like
you have no idea what I'm talking about. I guess you don't play
in pubs very often.
#Post#: 2315--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: guguizg Date: February 4, 2022, 6:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I put in quotation marks to make sure i wouldn't distort your
words. I'm aware that in pub lobbies most terrans are pretty
much useless, but i don't think you can blame that on Wmaster or
balance.
#Post#: 2316--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: Persephone Date: February 4, 2022, 6:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think I can. Wmaster doesn't know how to balance the game, so
the game doesn't attract good players, since there is no
challenge. Terran will win every time if the lobby is good.
And then when good players do join a random lobby, the game is
structured so that zerg will focus them the entire game and make
it unplayable. So there is no point in playing. Either terran
wins easy, or you get focused while your allies do nothing, or
you choose zerg to inflate your record. All things that make
the game unpopular.
#Post#: 2317--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: guguizg Date: February 5, 2022, 4:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't even know how to begin...
1. Games don't attract good players, games attract new players
and with time they will get good.
2. "Since there is no challange": If you don't think zerg hex is
challanging, maybe we're playing different games. Zerg hex has a
considerable learning curve both for terran and zerg. If you
still feel like you're too good for public lobbies, as they
provide you no challange, try playing some clan games with
actual good players, you will understand it is challanging.
3. It is true, terran will win every time if the lobby is filled
with good players, that's why the community has developed
different game modes with different rules to make it balanced.
4. I have friends that like playing on public lobbies and have
created accounts only for that. Their identity is secret and
they don't use that account when on a party with other good
players. Some of them have reached 95%+ winrates. So yeah being
"alone" in a public lobby is challanging, but not always it will
be impossible.
5. If you don't find fun in public lobbies, you should join
community discord groups, like heXnab discord, which is open to
public. There you can find people who you can play with.
Or if you want you can keep blaming wmaster for every problem
you can find and stay sad in oblivion
#Post#: 2318--------------------------------------------------
Re: What people need to understand about balance.
By: Persephone Date: February 5, 2022, 8:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=guguizg link=topic=255.msg2317#msg2317
date=1644101229]
I don't even know how to begin...
1. Games don't attract good players, games attract new players
and with time they will get good.
2. "Since there is no challange": If you don't think zerg hex is
challanging, maybe we're playing different games. Zerg hex has a
considerable learning curve both for terran and zerg. If you
still feel like you're too good for public lobbies, as they
provide you no challange, try playing some clan games with
actual good players, you will understand it is challanging.
3. It is true, terran will win every time if the lobby is filled
with good players, that's why the community has developed
different game modes with different rules to make it balanced.
4. I have friends that like playing on public lobbies and have
created accounts only for that. Their identity is secret and
they don't use that account when on a party with other good
players. Some of them have reached 95%+ winrates. So yeah being
"alone" in a public lobby is challanging, but not always it will
be impossible.
5. If you don't find fun in public lobbies, you should join
community discord groups, like heXnab discord, which is open to
public. There you can find people who you can play with.
Or if you want you can keep blaming wmaster for every problem
you can find and stay sad in oblivion
[/quote]
Wow what an asshole you are.
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page