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#Post#: 2280--------------------------------------------------
I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: PistachioSurprise Date: November 18, 2021, 5:01 pm
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I love this game, and am sad the dev stopped patching it. I am
seriously considering making Zerg Hex 2, either by changing the
current Zerg Hex map, or by creating a new(but similar) map from
scratch. Trying to gauge player interest before undertaking it.
Here are the main problems that I view with the game(I'm coming
from the point of view that Zerg is slightly underpowered).
Here are my general plans to improve the game. I will try not
to change too much of the current game, as it's already a great
game. The main goal is to balance it, and make a more
rewarding"ranking" system, which I think will make the game much
more playable. One note on "balance"... a big problem with
balancing a game like this is that it is hard to balance both at
the lowest and highest levels. Even with a 50-50 winrate...
there will still be tons of lobsided games... just like in
Normal SC2 when a GM zerg plays against a Plat Terran, or vica
versa.
Terran Nerfs
1.) Increase Terran Wall Build Time(by 50%) This will be a
slight nerf to make the build time increased by 50%. It will
make quickly walling off the area where your construction yard
goes a BIT harder. And it will make quickly walling off "side
areas"(areas that allow you to get your 5th or 6th gas) a bit
harder. As it is right now, with 3 or 4 scvs(some people even
do more), you can wall off a whole area in a manner of seconds,
with little risk, little cost, and massive benefit.
2.) Increase SCV cost to 20 gas(from 10 gas) This will combine
with nerf #1 to further make "walling" a bit less overpowered,
and limit how quickly terrans can safely expand. Now zergs who
micro and kill scvs will be more greatly rewarded. And pulling
5 scvs to quickly construct a wall that will give a massive
advantage is more risky... you can't afford to just lose 2 scvs
and shrug it off anymore. Terrans must be more cautious with
their SCV use. They still have overpowered walls for cheap.
But the surrounding circumstances help balance things out more.
3.) Increase cost of refinery to 40 gas(from 20 gas), and
refinery build to to 25 seconds(from 20 seconds) This will make
refineries pay for themselves less quickly, and thus terrans
have to be more careful about leaving unprotected refineries.
Right now as it is, the cost of 20 gas is way too low. This
isn't as much about balance as it is a poor design, that makes
what SHOULD be a very important structure be way too cheap.
Refineries should be something that has to be defended... not
something that you can just plop down willy nilly, and if the
zerg doesn't happen to see it for a minute you've paid for
itself. Now the refinery will need to exist for 2 minutes(which
still is pretty low) in order to pay for itself. And the added
5 second build time makes it slightly harder to build them willy
nilly.
4.) Increase Cost of "Gas Extraction One" to 200 gas(from 150
gas) This will generally make the first gas extraction a little
less OP, especially for Ion builds. I feel this is needed to
help balance the game, as well as offset some zerg nerfs(below).
NOTE: While these nerfs may not seem like too big of a
deal(especially considering the buff below)... realize the goal
here is to create a bottleneck in scvs. They cost more now.
And building things takes longer(which means you will need more
scvs potentially). It will be harder for terrans to have enough
scvs without spending a lot of gas on them. "scv usage" will
now be much more of a bottleneck than in the past, which will
hopefully restrain terrans' ability to expand a bit.
Terran Buffs:
1.) Increase Starting Gas to 125(from 70) This will help to
offset the higher cost for Refineries at the start of the
game(but still make them cost more going forward). With "stock"
rules, you would build two refineries for 40, leaving you 30 to
build a farm. With the new rules(refineries cost 40 gas instead
of 20, and terrans start with 110 gas instead of 80), you will
still be able to make 2 refineries and 1 farm at the start and
have 15 gas left over(but all refineries and scvs going forward
will cost more, and take longer to build). Terrans can still
build scvs at the start to wall, but it comes at a higher cost.
Zerg Buffs
1.) Drones now cost 10 minerals(instead of 20) This will allow
early game zerg to have a significant buff, and as time goes on
the lower drone cost matters less and less. It's a great way to
buff early game zerg, which gives it a better ability to keep
terrans in check early... without making zerg OP in late game.
2.) Make more space/more useful space for the zerg to build
behind big spines. The tiles along the cliff are very jagged,
and make it hard to use efficiently. I will try to make it more
flat, and more efficient use of space, so you can more easily
fit spawners there. So many times I see zergs with units caught
back there, because the terrain is so jaggedy it's hard to place
spawners properly.
3.) Zerg Large Spine Crawlers start with 1800 hp(up from
1300hp). This will slightly help to alleviate having your large
spine crawlers focused down before you have time to react. In
the long term, the extra 500 hp won't matter much against
elites, italis, etc. But it will help Zergs have another few
miliseconds to react, and heal their big spines with infestors
when a terran sneakily tries to target one down. I think this
is one of the hardest part of playing zerg against 3 experienced
terrans... if you don't react even once, you lose a big spine,
and often the game.
4.) Zerg Mineral Extractor/greater Mineral Extractor hp
increased to 750/1250(from 500/750). This will make killing the
outer extractors a bit more energy/risk intensive for terrans.
And it will help to offset the increase to cost(see below under
Nerfs), in terms of ion cannons. Because (below) I made
extractors more expensive, the idea of ion cannoning all of them
becomes more plausible, and I don't want that to be a thing.
Giving them more HP would keep ions from being able to take out
3 rows of greater mineral extractors so easily.
Zerg Nerfs
1.) Drones now have 4 attack(instead of 5) and 25hp(instead of
30) This is mainly to prevent "drone rushes" at the start of
the game due to how much cheaper they are. While I am fine with
the idea of drone rushes, we have to make sure it isn't OP.
2.) Extractor cost now 250/810(instead of 200/660). Similar to
the terran refinery, the zerg extractor is an important
building, and should be painful to lose. With all of the nerfs
to terran, increasing the cost of the extractor helps to offset
some of them. And, it makes protecting/killing the extractors
outside the zerg's home base more important for terrans and
zergs to consider.
Zerg Changes(both buff and nerf)
1.) Initial Creep tumors will be moved to make them less "in the
way". Also the creep will be adjusted so that it is 1 space
farther back near where the terran normally places their armory.
This will make early hydra attacks on a forward armory more
difficult. I feel considering how hard/long we've made it with
these changes for terran to expand... being able to cripple them
with hydras would be too OP for zerg.
These are the initial changes I would make. Further eventually
I would tackle things like balancing zerg's units, to make them
all more useful, and certain once less relatively overpowered.
Also some minor map changes like giving terrans a bit more of
unbuildable space behind their command center/barracks, to store
things like unused troops/scvs/batteries/etc, when you are stuck
inside your base. Things can get cluttered, and there's really
no need for it.
Let me know what everyone thinks, and if they'd like to see a
Zerg Hex 2? Would you want a complete remake, or editing the
current map?
#Post#: 2281--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: ZergTriumph Date: November 19, 2021, 10:59 am
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You've got it completely backwards. Your proposals would buff
zerg early and nerf terran early. If you've read the posts on
this forum, you would know that the game has the opposite
problem: zerg is too weak late game and terran is too strong
late game, especially when terran can just bunker easily. If
you want to balance this game, buff zerg late game: torras and
Omegalisk. Put a cap on zerg supply costs after a certain point,
or make it an option to buy an upgrade that freezes zerg supply
costs after armor 5. Allow zerg to buy an upgrade to infestor
energy generation. Reduce torra cooldown time. Allow zerg to
make more than one omega at once. Reduce omega and torra cost.
And eliminate capacity early game so that zerg can't just all in
one terran when the others are noobs sitting in their bases
doing nothing.
#Post#: 2282--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: Ecanos Date: November 21, 2021, 12:09 am
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[s]The infestor maybe could need a[u] 10-15% higher regenrate of
his Energy.
With the Rest of the Game i am okay.[/u][/s]
easy to implentated is " add Creep Energy Regen Bonus for
infestor " :) [and it sound logic, more energyregen on creep:) ]
(this would make the attacking infestor a bit away)
BigSpine can prepare before someone attack +200Max Hp. thats
okay.
This is what the 10-12-15% better Energy regeneration will get
the Spine his hp faster. (or Max Hp).
[s]
I personally would have a easy Terran, but a new map.
(by the way buffed the america players with 3 more marine,
because they leave)...
balance like you want. and gameplay mostly lucky, what the
situation is.
+-7min at the same Time [bruta Primals Tankling Veteran Elite,
there are much different things the player do before (only farms
everywhere till no place anymore, than every tech or he go Cow
or Sheep Farm. or everything same time + expand + get extra
gases). [/s]
[s]yeah. i should europe update the crazy 5 Hex... [protoss
optimation was we talking about, but just first of all going
near crazy hex [Supply of Units Erase]
most fun is, if you use Stasis vs Terran :P
Energy Warp can use to have energy in Infestor :) Fast Infestor
for your wishbuilding. picking up 2k startmoney :D and eco fast.
nice zerg game. not so super slow eco like zerg hex.[/s]
The slower Eco as that slow Zerg Hex Eco... is not that cool.
i am player of 2018 tech into Ultralisk (4v1 Game) and win :)
casual player love StartSetup 3 Marine 1 or 2 Reaper at Start ;)
#Post#: 2283--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: scdpride Date: November 23, 2021, 5:42 pm
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elites are extremely to effective late game, you need to figure
out how to balance that.
zerg late game is garbage and adding in lag factor, zerg takes
30 second to make 1 spawner.
#Post#: 2284--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: BigNoob Date: November 25, 2021, 8:17 am
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Community Edition was around a while back and that didn't gain
as much traction. I don't see how a ZH2 would gain more.
Note the math for spires: (200 + 20) * 3 = 660. The proposed
change of 250/810 would be a strict nerf: (250 + 10) * 3 = 780 <
810.
The biggest problem, as others have voiced throughout the forum
and in this post, is late game. IMO If anything, allowing
multiple concurrent omegas to be spawned will already go a long
way in preventing high ground turtles with uncapped italis.
+1 making drones cheaper. Easier for me to force terrans into
making a shock instead of reaper + farm.
#Post#: 2285--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: Ecanos Date: November 27, 2021, 1:19 pm
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well i am not completly thinking wmaster is away.
because he did Missile Wars
The " LVL Up System 5- 10 -15 - 20 -25" ... maybe there is a
similar to a new Zerg Hex Zerg. That can buy faster the tech
[roach with his tech automaticly in 4min or for 2k mineral or
speed up 1min for 500mineral]
we know the button in Missile Wars. For me a really hard
einzuschätzendes Power/speedhelp.
gl
[saw a low player game [or high Terran kill the poor zerg into
Roach without extra Spawn Tar Roach] (after much time (7min it
should be half price))
#Post#: 2286--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: PistachioSurprise Date: November 30, 2021, 1:58 am
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I think what people are not realizing... the problem with the
game is that it's too easy for terran to comfortably expand and
hold enough resources that by late game, they have massive
amounts of elites(or can ion easily).
By making the early game more trying for terran... it will allow
zergs a lot more freedom and control in the mid/early game. The
effect? Terrans will have less eco all game. And it will be
easier for the Zerg to focus in 1 or 2 player.
So, instead of 3 terrans with 50+ elites in the late game... you
now would have maybe
One terran stuck in base. The other terran 2 gas. The third
terran might have 40 elites.
That is doable for a zerg.
The problem is as it stands, even forcing in a single player who
is highly skilled is hard. The problem is from the start, the
terran never has any discomfort.
Now getting your initial base set up as a terran will be harder.
And it will be much easier for zergs to pick and punish certain
terrans, crippling them.
Sure, you can just nerf elites, but I think that sort of misses
the point. The point is, it's rather boring the way it is,
where people have 90% win rates just sitting on 4 gasses
comfortably. This will make even getting to that "comfortable 4
gas position" much harder... and nearly impossible for all 3
terrans to do it against a skilled zerg.
The other buffs combined give the zerg greater ability to hold
off attacks from multiple fronts, further allowing them to focus
greater threats without getting killed by weaker players.
It seems nobody really wants this to happen though, so I'm a bit
discouraged now. I guess it's just dead. Shame it's a fun
game, with a few simple changes and an MMR system it could be
awesome.
Just so you all know I'm a guy with like 90% terran winrate, 75%
zerg winrate. I'm no noob. I'm just tired of the late night
lobbies where it's 6 experienced terrans and nobody wants zerg
because they lose 100% of the time. Not even fun anymore.
#Post#: 2287--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 1, 2021, 9:39 am
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Because in most lobbies 4 or 5 of the terrans are absolute
garbage, so the zerg can just up capacity, build tanklings and
F2 the only good terran on their side. That isn't fun for
anyone. People enjoy being able to build up an economy and get
an army that can actually do something. The problem is zerg
can't. No matter how much zerg ecos in the current game, the
terrans will always come out ahead.
And nobody cares about your winrate. This is the easiest game
in SC2 to manipulate your winrate. Just pick terran in good
lobbies, zerg in noob lobbies and quit before 2:15 if things are
looking bad. You want to fix the game, count every game as a
loss if you quit, regardless of how early.
#Post#: 2288--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: RickSanchez Date: December 2, 2021, 4:48 am
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[qoute]Just pick terran in good lobbies, zerg in noob lobbies
and quit before 2:15 if things are looking bad.[/quote]
I hate how often i end up thinking it is a good lobby but then
it isnt...
#Post#: 2299--------------------------------------------------
Re: I am willing to Make "Zerg Hex 2"
By: zhizhi Date: January 20, 2022, 8:54 pm
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When this game is fun: at least one Terran can be pushed into
base early and the other can be contained. Mid-game is tit for
tat back and forth, and maybe Zerg lose sone hatch or two but
also end up crippling or killing one Terran player. Late game
Terran and Zerg fight evenly and one wins over the other due to
skill or ingenuity. If one Zerg quits early so the other Zerg
actually has enough income to make the game fun.
when this game is not fun: noobs quit early and cripple Zerg eco
and the shittiest game ensues or remake. 4-6 pro terrans against
any Zerg, especially a noob that doesn't get eco. Any game where
Zerg does a decent job with eco and making investors and a few
hydras and doesn't upgrade any spawners and manages to contain
all terrains to 4 gas but just ends up getting stomped mid-late
game with stasis and elites and an ion path right to the hives.
Any game where enough terrains 1 gas italis into ion and Zerg
spends 40 minutes trying to break into the base. Any game where
a handful of marines easily pushes back 30+ spawners mid-game
and liquefies hydras.
zerg eco needs to be boosted mid to late game so that terrains
feel a sense of urgency to push and claim territory at a higher
cost to their energy and gas income. If terran can't do much but
barely survive on 1 or 2 gas, and can match Zerg with 3 or 4 and
gain the upper hand with 5 or 6 then that's a better dynamic
than terrains easily getting 4 gas and sitting there cutting
through masses of Zerg units like nothing and then easily
pushing in late game with stasis spamming and using the ion
cannon to liquefy the entire Zerg base with no real counter
against an italis (ranged unit) and no real penalty or
consequence for sitting in their 4 gas base for 20 minutes.
Rushing bruta or infused roach should not be the only 2
strategies for winning the game as Zerg. There should be a
clear, progressive nature to each armor level such that each
level marks the progression of difficulty that terrans will be
facing and must counter. Tier1 Zerg units should deal WELL with
Terran Tier1 units such that four marines and a shock trooper is
not enough to get 3 gas going early game. IF that's all terran
needs to deal with Zerg to start, then somewhere around 15
minutes, terrains should be terrified that they will be overrun
IF they do not go out and claim more gas. in my mind, terrains
should feel comfortable getting 1 gas, and then need to ramp up
in order to claim the second, and further to claim the third by
15 minutes. That should begin a stable place for terrains to
start pushing forward as Zerg units begin to get harder to deal
with. I think that has to do with energy consumption. if energy
costs rise and upgrade costs are more expensive, while reapers
are more expensive to train, then it will limit terran risk
early game to a methodical claiming of one gas after another
instead of three at once.
If terran manages to push out and gain more gases then they will
have the upper hand in the late game because the further away
the gas geyser is, the more gas it produces, but the more it
will cost to build on and the more difficult the fight will be
over it. It would be even better if Zerg can use gas from the
beginning on units or upgrades or something so that the gas
geysers lend a benefit to Zerg as well that compounds over time.
each armor tier should provide an equivalent rise in difficulty
relative to the units that come before it. Each unit should be
"worth it" and a viable strategy for Zerg so there is a
consistently exponential difficulty gradient as the late game
arrives.
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