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#Post#: 157--------------------------------------------------
Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: Mett Gaming
Date: November 9, 2020, 4:42 am
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After a lengthy discussion on my discord I've come to propose
the following:
I. Firebats: Remove bonus damage vs structures
II. Hydras/Strikelings: change less dmg vs armored to less dmg
vs structures
III. Chemplant: Output dependent on Refinery count. 4 Gas (+1
per refinery)/5s meaning output would vary from 60G/min to
96G/min on 3 outside gases with potential to be more.
The goals:
1. Players should not be rewarded for passive play. Currently
chemplant rewards turtleing with the best mid game pushing
power.
2. Firebats will take more time to burn down buildings, both
increasing the gas cost aswell as the time for the zerg to
react.
3. Hydras and Strikelings have an easier time killing Firebats.
Currently zerg needs to invest into at least 3 attack ups before
units can damage fbs. A very high cost for a 14-16 min eco.
4. Discourage 1 Gas Chemplant plays and reward players for
actively pushing out and taking additional gases.
5. Firebats would still do the same damage vs units but would be
easier countered without marine support. So they would take on a
more tanky role instead of the swiss army knife do-all-can-all
they are now.
Other suggestions can be commented below, but I'd like to
establish these changes as a baseline to work from.
#Post#: 158--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 9, 2020, 4:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I like your ideas !!!
But sadly it doesn't fix the main problem. You cannot build
firebats and marines at the same time^^ If you rush Firebats you
will not be able to support them with decent marines before a
long time.
That is why the players are going bunker for Firebats, they
don't want to build even 1 marine or do energy.
If what you propose becomes the patch, i fear that no one will
push with firebats anymore and the unit will be forgotten :(((
To resolve that u need to switch the firebat tech into the
armory tech, no choice^^.
#Post#: 159--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: Mehaperson
Date: November 9, 2020, 5:08 am
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That's a great idea moving firebat tech to armoury.
If you really want to get creative with it as well you can make
it so marines upgrade into firebats like a weapons exchange or
class change. That'd stream line armoury to serve it's offensive
purpose and players would have to make marines to get firebats
allowing for army mix.
Obviously this suggestion can be built upon as it's just an
idea.
#Post#: 161--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 9, 2020, 5:17 am
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I am all for fbs nerf and hydra/striks change
As for chem plants I am willing to try to punish in base/1gas
plays but would prefer if we started with numbers that still on
normal 3 outside +1 in base gas give normal 10gas/tick chem and
seen if chem rly is that much of a problem with weaker fbs, if
yes then we can reduce it but thats only my(quite lonely it
seems) opinion
#Post#: 164--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 9, 2020, 6:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> I am all for fbs nerf and hydra/striks change
> As for chem plants I am willing to try to punish in base/1gas
plays but would prefer if we started with numbers that still on
normal 3 outside +1 in base gas give normal 10gas/tick chem and
seen if chem rly is that much of a problem with weaker fbs, if
yes then we can reduce it but thats only my(quite lonely it
seems) opinion
>
--- End Quote ---
the chemplant leads into different issues. one of them is the
firebat, another one is super fast wall ups that leads into "eco
forever pain in the butt" to break it for zerg. it is the sole
reason why matches take 40+ minutes
#Post#: 165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 9, 2020, 7:22 am
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if someone invest gas into wall ups right away then he has no
rin ups and can only really push with fire bats, with those
nerfs mett want to do it would mean he cant rly do any pressure
to zerg who in this case would be allowed to eco much better and
faster and if u do go for all rin ups before autocasting walls
even with 4-5 chems it still take a while so there are not that
"fast" but then again u wanted to max wall armor on 5 so I
suppose any speed will be considered too fast if terran dont
just die on 30 min max
#Post#: 167--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 9, 2020, 9:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If you invest gases into wall armor early game u deserve to not
be able to do damages at all x) It should be normal!
Having max wall should be kinda impossible as terran in my
opinion x) I will repeat that forever but this game isn't a
tower defense.
I really think that moving firebat tech into armory is a good
start^^ You can then, as proposed by Mett, balance it a little
so firebat becomes a support more than a damage dealer.
#Post#: 625--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: GrumpyKitten
Date: November 21, 2020, 6:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mett Gaming link ---
>
> After a lengthy discussion on my discord I've come to propose
the following:
> I. Firebats: Remove bonus damage vs structures
> II. Hydras/Strikelings: change less dmg vs armored to less dmg
vs structures
> III. Chemplant: Output dependent on Refinery count. 4 Gas (+1
per refinery)/5s meaning output would vary from 60G/min to
96G/min on 3 outside gases with potential to be more.
>
> The goals:
> 1. Players should not be rewarded for passive play. Currently
chemplant rewards turtleing with the best mid game pushing
power.
> 2. Firebats will take more time to burn down buildings, both
increasing the gas cost aswell as the time for the zerg to
react.
> 3. Hydras and Strikelings have an easier time killing
Firebats. Currently zerg needs to invest into at least 3 attack
ups before units can damage fbs. A very high cost for a 14-16
min eco.
> 4. Discourage 1 Gas Chemplant plays and reward players for
actively pushing out and taking additional gases.
> 5. Firebats would still do the same damage vs units but would
be easier countered without marine support. So they would take
on a more tanky role instead of the swiss army knife
do-all-can-all they are now.
>
> Other suggestions can be commented below, but I'd like to
establish these changes as a baseline to work from.
>
--- End Quote ---
I kinda like this idea with the chem, kinda dont.
You can still get marines early, get your 3 outer gas + 1
inbase, + try side gases (only bonus if zerg bad), and fall back
on eco, get chems, turtle hard. And you are still an annoying
unbreakable threat that will pump out FBs to clear big spines
and sht.
It just solves the 1 gas FB rush issue maybe. MAYBE. Because you
still get your 14-16 min chem (depends on player), it's just you
wont scale after that. But 1 gas terrans never scale anyways.
The strength of that build is that it's impossible to counter,
easy to execute, and have super early impact on the game. 5 bats
clear all outer nests + the eco.
Whatever, since the intended patch notes are out chems are
removed anyway.
#Post#: 655--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: Mett Gaming
Date: November 21, 2020, 9:46 am
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I wouldn't say chems are removed forever as I do have the strong
impression from my discord, yt comments and ingame chatter that
chems are favoured by a large portion of the community.
The problem with removing them is that terrans wont have any
lategame options to win as roaches will become too powerfull.
Right now Fbs and chem are the things that keep roaches in
check.
I like the variety in strategy the game offers and I'd like to
keep these options. But Fbs and chems need a counterplay. Hydras
and absorbing cloud micro would enable the zerg to defend
against early bats. Also the chem nerf would mean the terran
would run out of gas sooner.
A change to make banelings counter undefended walls could enable
the zerg to break bunkered in terrans more easily too.
But I'm open to try the proposed changes and see how that works
out. I REALLY don't think the game will be in it's final stage
with this patch. I also hope it won't be the last patch.
It is good to change the gameplay every now to keep it fresh.
(also helps me as a content creator ;))
Basically I think everything should have a counter play from
both zerg and terran. Right now terran has the edge in that as
there is none to Firebats other than trying to delay them with
heavy early aggression and even then they come out eventually.
#Post#: 663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Adressing the Firebat issue
DIR By: GrumpyKitten
Date: November 21, 2020, 12:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mett Gaming link ---
>
> I wouldn't say chems are removed forever as I do have the
strong impression from my discord, yt comments and ingame
chatter that chems are favoured by a large portion of the
community.
> The problem with removing them is that terrans wont have any
lategame options to win as roaches will become too powerfull.
Right now Fbs and chem are the things that keep roaches in
check.
>
> I like the variety in strategy the game offers and I'd like to
keep these options. But Fbs and chems need a counterplay. Hydras
and absorbing cloud micro would enable the zerg to defend
against early bats. Also the chem nerf would mean the terran
would run out of gas sooner.
> A change to make banelings counter undefended walls could
enable the zerg to break bunkered in terrans more easily too.
>
> But I'm open to try the proposed changes and see how that
works out. I REALLY don't think the game will be in it's final
stage with this patch. I also hope it won't be the last patch.
> It is good to change the gameplay every now to keep it fresh.
(also helps me as a content creator ;))
> Basically I think everything should have a counter play from
both zerg and terran. Right now terran has the edge in that as
there is none to Firebats other than trying to delay them with
heavy early aggression and even then they come out eventually.
>
--- End Quote ---
I somewhat agree, and i wasn't ever on the "completely remove
it" side either.
It's just chem is a really strong turtle tool and something
needed to be done.
Personally I feel like this was a bit overkill, terrans will now
have no chance holding walls after 20 mins. Ravs will be
devastating.
But then again: let's see how the meta game shifts. The game
will feel new and fresh again to experiment different things.
And that is a big + for me.
Banelings is a huge investment currently, and i have
experimented with it. I only see it working against 1 gas
terrans or HG terrans. But still it is huge investment. Or maybe
it's just ignored and actually really good.
Will try them until patch comes out.
And i think there is no "perfect balance", just as with MOBAS
it's more like "let's change some things in the game and see
what the meta will be after". And i don't think ppl should be
thinking about "perfect balance and dont touch the game ever
again" either.
I watch dota 2, and the balance is somewhat the ideal there:
there are 2-4 really strong hero combos / strategy always. But
there are a lot of viable other strategy that can work. And it
to work depends on execution, and enemy reaction.
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