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#Post#: 2200--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: Ecanos Date: July 28, 2021, 1:54 pm
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[quote author=BigNoob link=topic=239.msg2199#msg2199
date=1627492233]
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=239.msg2196#msg2196
date=1627472942]
[quote author=BigNoob link=topic=239.msg2195#msg2195
date=1627438817]
Should we discuss whether early leaver penalty needs change? The
argument about letting Terrans play ought to apply to Z as well.
[/quote]
I think the very early leaver penalty should be reduced. Right
now it encourages trolling, people who leave very early just to
spite the zerg. Only eliminating one extractor instead of both
would be a good start.
And it should count as a loss no matter when you quit. A lot of
players are record whores who join lobbies, see whether or not
they think they can win, then quit before 2:15 over and over.
[/quote]
I agree with the losses counting no matter what. W/L seems to be
the best proxy to gauge who's reliable on the team, and I was
confused the other day to see Adam have a 10-0 score on Terran
when he babyrages all the time and leaves when he can't have a
walk in the park against Z. He left cause he couldn't be
bothered to deal with 1 no micro F2 on mid from a **** Z with <
20% win rate lmfao.
As for the penalty, I personally would prefer a heavier income
loss with no building removal. Having to wait for 600 + 220
minerals with reduced income and flat tax only to get the 1st
spire back just feels like a convoluted way to say "**** you,
zerg".
[/quote]
first of all Play "community Version" and don t Cry :D of a
System that works. This player Adam no more want playing, he got
all archivments, he personally want. He has nothing, he want in
SC2 Zerg Hex. PLaying vs braindead zergs, are not a challenge
you want, because every lower player, darf="allowed to" play Low
but he must play highest level for them [his own win] (because
lowies don t reach it) [adams easyiest win phase was oldfirebat]
:D [and oldfirebat did only worked, because the players was
super low and have over Mineral and over vespen (a extrem noob
buff unit ))]. But with strikling or mass units, firebat, was
not able to run into zerg.
#Post#: 2201--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: bossypalladin Date: July 28, 2021, 9:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I like the unique flavor of Community Version as it is - zerg is
weaker early but ecos up faster. Capacity definitely should not
be brought back before Armor 1.
I also like the idea of zerg becoming ever more powerful as the
game goes on. But currently there's a point where zerg stalls
out in the lategame if multiple terrans are turtled with full
gens. They can easily win with ion and there's little zerg can
do. I agree with the suggestion to allow zerg to have unlimited
omegas. It would make zerg truly OP lategame and force terrans
to actually try to push instead of relying on ion from the
beginning.
Also, bring back the old tank. The new tank is terrible. It
costs way too much for terran to counter spores with the new
tank.
#Post#: 2202--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: BigNoob Date: July 29, 2021, 1:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ecanos link=topic=239.msg2200#msg2200
date=1627498465]
first of all Play "community Version" and don t Cry :D of a
System that works. This player Adam no more want playing, he got
all archivments, he personally want. He has nothing, he want in
SC2 Zerg Hex. PLaying vs braindead zergs, are not a challenge
you want, because every lower player, darf="allowed to" play Low
but he must play highest level for them [his own win] (because
lowies don t reach it) [adams easyiest win phase was oldfirebat]
:D [and oldfirebat did only worked, because the players was
super low and have over Mineral and over vespen (a extrem noob
buff unit ))]. But with strikling or mass units, firebat, was
not able to run into zerg.
[/quote]
You don't make any sense. If you think that this is a system
that works, then by your standards, a score board that doesn't
change is also a system that works, since both represent the
same garbled information.
The example I gave was literally Adam avoiding any struggle. The
only challenge he'd have gotten that game would be from early
F2s, because after 3 minutes, the Zerg would have misused his
resources so much that he wouldn't even need to break 50 APM for
the rest of the game.
If he wanted an actual challenge, then he'd get some friends and
run some private games, but I doubt Adam would have enough SC2
friends considering how much of a narcissistic shithead he is in
game. I can only hope that he's actually nice IRL.
Also weird to see you comment on game balance when you created
ZH One Way.
#Post#: 2203--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: July 29, 2021, 4:32 am
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---
#Post#: 2204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: Adam Date: July 29, 2021, 6:08 am
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'slow clapping' what a gold comedy u guys got here going...
actualy made me log in on forum first time in 4 months or so
1 there is a "slight" difference between "leaving game which u
think is unwinnable" and "leaving a game which is unwinable"...
first one is done by people like mwhahhahaha that after failing
at literaly everything for 20 min start flaming me for 2 min
then leave the game so I can win it 4 min later... in a way I
suppose he was right- it truly was unwinnable for zerg before he
left...
second one on other hand is something u may be little less
familiar with as its probably little above ur experience
thershold but play few thousands games more, gain little more
wr and u too will be quite accurately conclude that for example
playing zerg with 10-27 ally when there is sorceres on his side
is nothing but a waste of time
2 as for leaving bc of f2 before 2:15- it has nothing to do with
stats or challange tbh... quite opposite, its a pinnacle of
stategy - zerg uses aaaaaaaaaaaamazing and totaly prooooooooo
strat that only true micro gods can pull off aka press 2
buttons, aclick mid so I counter with equally demanding strat of
pressing 2 buttons and giving zerg exactly what he wanted- 1
less terran in
game... "he didnt want dead eco with it"? och well, then maybe
in next game he will think a little longer before giving terran
incentive to leave when it is better for terran team if one of
them leave (which is btw totaly *ed just as early capacity u
want unlocked)
#Post#: 2205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: Persephone Date: July 29, 2021, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Why not change the map so that it's harder for zerg to abuse the
middle terran?
You could shift the 2 side terrans farther away from mid.
And/or move the mid-terran's third gas closer to his first so
it's easier to defend.
#Post#: 2206--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: BigNoob Date: July 29, 2021, 12:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=239.msg2204#msg2204
date=1627556907]
'slow clapping' what a gold comedy u guys got here going...
actualy made me log in on forum first time in 4 months or so
1 there is a "slight" difference between "leaving game which u
think is unwinnable" and "leaving a game which is unwinable"...
first one is done by people like mwhahhahaha that after failing
at literaly everything for 20 min start flaming me for 2 min
then leave the game so I can win it 4 min later... in a way I
suppose he was right- it truly was unwinnable for zerg before he
left...
second one on other hand is something u may be little less
familiar with as its probably little above ur experience
thershold but play few thousands games more, gain little more
wr and u too will be quite accurately conclude that for example
playing zerg with 10-27 ally when there is sorceres on his side
is nothing but a waste of time
2 as for leaving bc of f2 before 2:15- it has nothing to do with
stats or challange tbh... quite opposite, its a pinnacle of
stategy - zerg uses aaaaaaaaaaaamazing and totaly prooooooooo
strat that only true micro gods can pull off aka press 2
buttons, aclick mid so I counter with equally demanding strat of
pressing 2 buttons and giving zerg exactly what he wanted- 1
less terran in
game... "he didnt want dead eco with it"? och well, then maybe
in next game he will think a little longer before giving terran
incentive to leave when it is better for terran team if one of
them leave (which is btw totaly *ed just as early capacity u
want unlocked)
[/quote]
I can only discuss point 2, and I absolutely agree. In fact,
leaving is a dominant strategy. There is no point in playing
when 2 people per side can just leave and fuck Z over. I'd be
happy if both of the terrans on my side leave before 2:15 all
the time. There is absolutely nothing Z can do to stop me from
rolling them when they're set back to ~100 mins per minute.
Since you already know that leaving early is the best move, why
do you ever stay in a lobby? Does this entire thing take away
from the fact that leaving should reflect on your score the same
way that leaving at any time after 2:15 does? You're an absolute
pain to deal with throughout the entire match, but can we stop
pretending like you have nobler motives than "waaah I can't
snowball Z because I'm being F2'd as mid, waaaah"
If your approach to teaching Z how to play better is to fuck
them over in the hopes of them understanding the issue (which
will never happen), then why are you complaining about my desire
to have capacity unlocked? At least be consistent with your
unhelpfulness.
About capacity:
There are valid use cases that can fuck T over massively. I
don't see why I should be forced to pay 800 mins to unlock A1
just so my ally and I can get 60 upgraded strikes to punish
greedy terrans, all because you guys think that the best way to
have new Z get better is to change game mechanics -- with can be
circumvented, instead of providing ways to teach the new
players???
There was literally a solid month where a silver league player
kept on hogging Z and kept losing, then claimed that T was imba
because he never managed to win. We told him that eco is king
when he had 10 Z games, and 130+ games later he still never made
spires. Do you think this kind of player is rare? Do think that
guy wouldn't have saved 800 minerals just to then get capacity?
If we're going to be arrogant pricks trying to decide what is
good for the rest of the playerbase, then can we address the
root of the issues instead of trying to apply a bandaid?
Let's face it, a zerg that is tempted to capacity upg their
spawners at the start is the not the caliber of ally that you
want. You're fucked already. You can't stop a toddler from
hurting themselves even if you put them in an inflatable castle.
Maybe they won't be able to set their eco back 5 minutes, but do
you think that will magically improve their decision making 10
minutes into the game?
#Post#: 2207--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: WanWhiteWolf Date: July 30, 2021, 2:36 am
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[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=239.msg2198#msg2198
date=1627484664]
Random idea: when upgrading a spawner it has 1-5% chance to
spawn an a skinned unit instead which gives +1/2/3/4/5/10
minerals on kill?
it's too fancy tho and clearly be an addition
HTML https://i.redd.it/1xitjmxho9g31.png
[/quote]
That's a nice idea. The number has to be a bit bigger though. I
mean the zerg can micro away that unit. Also +1 mineral is not
much considering that your income, even with a few farms is 100+
minerals. That gives you a second boost overall every 1-2
minutes.
I think a 10% chance is more reasonable but maybe it's better to
start lower for testing. Since it's an addition it's best to
start conservative. I would also give a boost to hp to the
special unit. This way Z has a reason to use them for attack
instead of micro them away (or killing them himself).
I also agree with the others with the Z penalty. As a terran am
I glad my ally leaves. It's the best thing he can do. That
shouldn't be the case. Some T leave when they are focused so
they give the team a good chance to win. It's a "Strategy".
WMaster mentioned at some point that he wants to add gas bonus
for Z. This encourages the T to be more active (clear the gases
early) and also gives a permanent boost to Z when a terran
leaves (gas is indestructible). My idea was to make infestors +
Hydra with gas. This way you don't have to cripple your eco to
get those. But of course, there can be other things.
Another thing that needs some work is the mid position for
terran. It's unbalanced for no reason. I am not saying that all
positions should be played the same. But it has to be a trade
off. One suggestion would be to add land between 3rd gas and
base. This way terran, provided he can secure 3 attack
directions, will get extra space for farms. It's a trade off.
Harder to hold but more income if done right.
Some other suggestions:
- Add Conservation 4. For really late games.
- Make spine crawlers cheaper. They are useless at the moment. I
mean, hydra is stronger, mobile and cheaper (you have to factor
the drone used to build the spine). If the spine is 60 - 70 or
so, it might make sense to make some in some odd scenarios.
- Reduce omega cocoon time from 2 min to 30 seconds. There is no
counter to ion in the game. Even this way, it's a hard game for
Z but he has a chance.
- Add "Wall breaker" upgrade for Z. Double the damage vs walls.
Requires armor 5. This is just for late game. Even Z attack 50
(maxed) will not pass level 18 walls on terran. Z doesn't really
have options except omega. But you can't omega 6 players. Make
it cost like 10k minerals. So it's not a rush thing.
- Make mineral containers give more minerals. It's still more
effective to add spanwers + mineral extractors. So efficient Z
do that. This creates massive lag late game.
Edit: I don't have experience with SC2 editor. But if you decide
to "continue" the development of the map, I can try to help.
Maybe learn a part of it (e.g. terrain).
#Post#: 2208--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: July 30, 2021, 5:23 am
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---
#Post#: 2210--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: Zergie Date: July 30, 2021, 5:38 am
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Skinned unit is a cool idea. If zerg micros all the skinned
units away, then the spawner will not be spawning new units
anymore after awhile. Need to try it out to know what is the
reasonable mineral to give without being too op for the terran.
What do you think about randomly forcing 2 of the top 4 players
based on win rates to become the zerg? It will more closely
align to the assumption of 4 relatively good terrans vs 2 good
zergs. It also removes the reason to leave due to bad teammates.
In that case, leaving before 2:15 can be recorded in the stats.
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