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#Post#: 2177--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: ZergTriumph Date: July 21, 2021, 3:41 pm
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Also, premade isn't working. Can you fix that?
Also give option for solo zerg.
#Post#: 2179--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: July 25, 2021, 7:53 am
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#Post#: 2181--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: WanWhiteWolf Date: July 25, 2021, 6:37 pm
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Zerg is to weak in this version. Capacity lock is a significant
nerf. Even in vanilla the zerg is at disadvantage. In this one
is even more.
I guess is a nice map if you play terran.
#Post#: 2182--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: July 26, 2021, 3:53 am
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#Post#: 2183--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: WanWhiteWolf Date: July 26, 2021, 8:32 am
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[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=239.msg2182#msg2182
date=1627289610]
[quote author=WanWhiteWolf link=topic=239.msg2181#msg2181
date=1627256251]
Zerg is to weak in this version. Capacity lock is a significant
nerf. Even in vanilla the zerg is at disadvantage. In this one
is even more.
I guess is a nice map if you play terran.
[/quote]
I disagree. I can only talk for myself, but I usually always
start with extractor and no cap for like 2-3 supplies anyways.
The reason for that is, you cannot really deny 3 gas from good
terrans. you can try, but in the end, he will get it anyways and
you are more behind than the terran.
Also imo it is rude to deny a terran to play the game. (if he is
maybe the only good one and you therefore are allowed to commit
more to him)
Just make sure terrans won't get additional gasses. For
Benchmark 1k@7m, 2k@11-12m, 3k@15m and you are fine :)
[/quote]
That's your style - and in my opinion the wrong strategy. An
agressive start denies gases from 2 terrans (mid and one side).
You can go eco mode after first ov. Both terrans fall like 4-5
min behind. Yes, they will get 3 gases after some time but they
won't be able to push you under min 15. if you start with
extractor , 3 good terrans will get 3+ gases early wipe you out
in min 15. Even with roaches.
As benchmark you get 1.3k min10, 2.4k min 15, 4.5k min 20.
Usually you get infestors @min12 for the side you don't deny. At
min 18 you have primals which deals with all pushes before
elites. Generally, under min 18 only the side that wasn't denied
pushes.
It doesn't matter how much eco you have - it only matter you eco
in relation with terrans. If 3 terrans push you with elites in
min 24, it doesn't matter what eco you have. You are dead.
With this map you cannot deny terran expansion for like 5
minutes. By then, a good terran is on 5-6 gases and full walled.
GL pushing into that. With 5 gases, terran gets elites in min
25, with 6 gases on min 22. Even if you get brutas, you need
massive amounts to counter a single terran, let alone 2 or 3. I
played this map 3 times (as terran always). It was super easy to
expand. At min 15 I pushed with vets and cleared all 3 sides. At
min 21 his hive fell. This was a Z with 100+ games.
Z is strong the first 3 minutes. Yes, you lose eco if you play
aggressively, but terrans will lose much more. It's a good
trade. The capacity lock on this map removes this option. The
only thing you have left is to go full eco and pray terrans are
afk in base first 20 minutes and don't take the side gases.
PS: I have 88% winrate as zerg with 200+ games. Even for me, the
capacity nerf is to big to bother as zerg.
#Post#: 2184--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: July 26, 2021, 8:38 am
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---
#Post#: 2185--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: ZergTriumph Date: July 26, 2021, 11:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=WanWhiteWolf link=topic=239.msg2183#msg2183
date=1627306328]
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=239.msg2182#msg2182
date=1627289610]
[quote author=WanWhiteWolf link=topic=239.msg2181#msg2181
date=1627256251]
Zerg is to weak in this version. Capacity lock is a significant
nerf. Even in vanilla the zerg is at disadvantage. In this one
is even more.
I guess is a nice map if you play terran.
[/quote]
I disagree. I can only talk for myself, but I usually always
start with extractor and no cap for like 2-3 supplies anyways.
The reason for that is, you cannot really deny 3 gas from good
terrans. you can try, but in the end, he will get it anyways and
you are more behind than the terran.
Also imo it is rude to deny a terran to play the game. (if he is
maybe the only good one and you therefore are allowed to commit
more to him)
Just make sure terrans won't get additional gasses. For
Benchmark 1k@7m, 2k@11-12m, 3k@15m and you are fine :)
[/quote]
That's your style - and in my opinion the wrong strategy. An
agressive start denies gases from 2 terrans (mid and one side).
You can go eco mode after first ov. Both terrans fall like 4-5
min behind. Yes, they will get 3 gases after some time but they
won't be able to push you under min 15. if you start with
extractor , 3 good terrans will get 3+ gases early wipe you out
in min 15. Even with roaches.
As benchmark you get 1.3k min10, 2.4k min 15, 4.5k min 20.
Usually you get infestors @min12 for the side you don't deny. At
min 18 you have primals which deals with all pushes before
elites. Generally, under min 18 only the side that wasn't denied
pushes.
It doesn't matter how much eco you have - it only matter you eco
in relation with terrans. If 3 terrans push you with elites in
min 24, it doesn't matter what eco you have. You are dead.
With this map you cannot deny terran expansion for like 5
minutes. By then, a good terran is on 5-6 gases and full walled.
GL pushing into that. With 5 gases, terran gets elites in min
25, with 6 gases on min 22. Even if you get brutas, you need
massive amounts to counter a single terran, let alone 2 or 3. I
played this map 3 times (as terran always). It was super easy to
expand. At min 15 I pushed with vets and cleared all 3 sides. At
min 21 his hive fell. This was a Z with 100+ games.
Z is strong the first 3 minutes. Yes, you lose eco if you play
aggressively, but terrans will lose much more. It's a good
trade. The capacity lock on this map removes this option. The
only thing you have left is to go full eco and pray terrans are
afk in base first 20 minutes and don't take the side gases.
PS: I have 88% winrate as zerg with 200+ games. Even for me, the
capacity nerf is to big to bother as zerg.
[/quote]
With the eco buffs in Community Version, zerg can be on 4k
income each by 15:30. 6k each by 18:00. That will crush
anything short of a hexnapple premade.
Use strikelings to deny gases outside base.
And after you get this eco, you can pump out brutas much faster
than in the regular version. After the initial bruta, you can
build 2 bruta spawners per supply, for 4 supplies in a row,
instead of having to alternate 1/2 brutas each supply as in
regular version.
Zerg is meant to be strong lategame. Community Version is
getting this game back on track.
#Post#: 2186--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: ZergTriumph Date: July 26, 2021, 1:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Rick: For your next patch, to make lategame zerg truly OP, you
should eliminate the cap on number of Omegas. Release the horde
of Omegas!
#Post#: 2187--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: WanWhiteWolf Date: July 26, 2021, 11:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=239.msg2185#msg2185
date=1627316060]
[quote author=WanWhiteWolf link=topic=239.msg2183#msg2183
date=1627306328]
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=239.msg2182#msg2182
date=1627289610]
[quote author=WanWhiteWolf link=topic=239.msg2181#msg2181
date=1627256251]
Zerg is to weak in this version. Capacity lock is a significant
nerf. Even in vanilla the zerg is at disadvantage. In this one
is even more.
I guess is a nice map if you play terran.
[/quote]
I disagree. I can only talk for myself, but I usually always
start with extractor and no cap for like 2-3 supplies anyways.
The reason for that is, you cannot really deny 3 gas from good
terrans. you can try, but in the end, he will get it anyways and
you are more behind than the terran.
Also imo it is rude to deny a terran to play the game. (if he is
maybe the only good one and you therefore are allowed to commit
more to him)
Just make sure terrans won't get additional gasses. For
Benchmark 1k@7m, 2k@11-12m, 3k@15m and you are fine :)
[/quote]
That's your style - and in my opinion the wrong strategy. An
agressive start denies gases from 2 terrans (mid and one side).
You can go eco mode after first ov. Both terrans fall like 4-5
min behind. Yes, they will get 3 gases after some time but they
won't be able to push you under min 15. if you start with
extractor , 3 good terrans will get 3+ gases early wipe you out
in min 15. Even with roaches.
As benchmark you get 1.3k min10, 2.4k min 15, 4.5k min 20.
Usually you get infestors @min12 for the side you don't deny. At
min 18 you have primals which deals with all pushes before
elites. Generally, under min 18 only the side that wasn't denied
pushes.
It doesn't matter how much eco you have - it only matter you eco
in relation with terrans. If 3 terrans push you with elites in
min 24, it doesn't matter what eco you have. You are dead.
With this map you cannot deny terran expansion for like 5
minutes. By then, a good terran is on 5-6 gases and full walled.
GL pushing into that. With 5 gases, terran gets elites in min
25, with 6 gases on min 22. Even if you get brutas, you need
massive amounts to counter a single terran, let alone 2 or 3. I
played this map 3 times (as terran always). It was super easy to
expand. At min 15 I pushed with vets and cleared all 3 sides. At
min 21 his hive fell. This was a Z with 100+ games.
Z is strong the first 3 minutes. Yes, you lose eco if you play
aggressively, but terrans will lose much more. It's a good
trade. The capacity lock on this map removes this option. The
only thing you have left is to go full eco and pray terrans are
afk in base first 20 minutes and don't take the side gases.
PS: I have 88% winrate as zerg with 200+ games. Even for me, the
capacity nerf is to big to bother as zerg.
[/quote]
With the eco buffs in Community Version, zerg can be on 4k
income each by 15:30. 6k each by 18:00. That will crush
anything short of a hexnapple premade.
Use strikelings to deny gases outside base.
And after you get this eco, you can pump out brutas much faster
than in the regular version. After the initial bruta, you can
build 2 bruta spawners per supply, for 4 supplies in a row,
instead of having to alternate 1/2 brutas each supply as in
regular version.
Zerg is meant to be strong lategame. Community Version is
getting this game back on track.
[/quote]
You can eco better on original version than on this one. I am
not sure why you think you get more eco here.
Simple math: On this version you start with an extractor. That's
200 extra mineral. The additional extractor gives you around 60
minerals / minute.
Let's compare with the old version. If you start with extractor
opening you can do it within around 25 seconds (400+ income
start). If we factor the additional income you get from the
extractor (~30 minerals in 30 seconds), we can say that you eco
is boosted by 30 seconds.
That's it. You get a 30 seconds head start. BUT: You have to
make the lvl 1 armor afterwards to get more eco. You are on 500
income. And you are on 500 income for the next 3+ minutes.
Because it takes 800 (armor) + 600(ov) + 200 (mineral extractor)
to get more. that's 1600 minerals to gather on 500 income.
On original version after 2 minutes you already have first ov +
used first ov: 600 (ov) + 200(extractor) + 200 (extractor) +
270-300 (spawners). You are at least 1 min ahead in comparison
if you decide to go for full eco.
This version does NOTHING when it comes to getting better income
than original.
The ONLY thing it does, it allows you to rush infestors 30
seconds earlier (if for some odd reason someone wants to mass
infestors with 500 income and cripple his economy). That's it.
Armor upgrade doesn't do anything else.
#Post#: 2188--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: WanWhiteWolf Date: July 26, 2021, 11:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Early game I think it's balanced on original version. You can
decide between aggression or eco.
If you start with extractor, it's an ok change. You leave
terrans with a bit more time to set up defenses and have some
options to defend. But capacity lock just kills the zerg.
I think there is no counter to ion in the original version.
Terrans can go aggressive. If zerg survives and counters them,
they can go high ground and ion. Even 3 terrans doing this will
end the game. Omega is just not good enough to counter ion play.
You won't be able to make 3 omegas before you get ioned 9 times.
High ground + italis + vets (only used when tora comes) will
hold you endlessly. If more than 3 terrans do ion play, it's gg
from min 0. There was a game where we (5 terrans) decided to
rush ion. Zerg hive died on min 18. He was on 4k income when he
had no option to make more ov. the 2nd hive fell on min 23.
One option would be to decrease cocoon duration from 2 minutes
to 30 seconds. This way, you can spawn more omegas provided you
have sky high income.
Also I think mineral containers should boost the income more.
It's still more effective to mass units + mineral extractors
than mineral containers. This just creates massive lags. Mineral
containers are locked behind late armor so it's not going to
help early. It's just an option to boost late game eco without
spamming small units like a mofo.
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