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#Post#: 2134--------------------------------------------------
Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: June 30, 2021, 10:54 pm
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#Post#: 2136--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: July 1, 2021, 6:39 am
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#Post#: 2138--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: ZergTriumph Date: July 1, 2021, 4:34 pm
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I really like this version. With this small change, zerg eco
scales up much faster. Both zergs can get 7k eco before 20
minutes.
The supply change for bruta is also helpful. It lets you build
4 sets of 2 brutas per supply in a row after getting the first
bruta.
Thanks again for doing this.
#Post#: 2139--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: guest99 Date: July 2, 2021, 9:57 am
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Here's a list of small changes that I recommend. I decided to
not deal with things like tanklings, firebats, tanks, and mid
terran, because those require a bit more thought for meaningful
balance changes. Instead, I'm focusing on straightforward things
like "No one uses it, so obviously it needs a buff" and
inconsequential matters like quality-of-life improvements.
Ultralisk - Zerg Buff
No one uses ultras, though they seem reasonable on paper. In
practice, an equal supply of primals with rapid respawn is
roughly the same effectiveness against vets as ultras. I think
tweaking 150 -> 200 HP and 5 -> 6 armor should be reasonable.
For reference, unupgraded vets have 6 attack, so this armor
change (with or w/o penetrating laser, but no armory/power
field) results in half damage compared to before. Here's a table
of numbers to show the comparison better:
[tt]Primal - Ultra - Bruta
120 - 150 - 400 HP
3 - 5 - 7 Armor
2.7 - 2.4 - 2.4 Speed
11 - 16 - 25x2 Attack
7.3 - 16 - 22 DPS
9 - 12 - 25 Supply
220 - 300 - 780 Minerals
8 - 8 - 8 Spawn time[/tt]
Beastling - Zerg Buff
I find that beastlings do indeed have a niche use, but in the
end that niche only works when you're already winning as zerg,
and it's worse than just teching up. How do we buff it? It
currently costs 400 minerals (one infestor and 250 minerals) and
20 supply. Ravators are also a reasonable 20 supply, but
decreasing the beastling supply to 15 would make it supercede
mineral containers, which would actually become more expensive
at 500 minerals. At best, you could decrease the supply to 20 ->
18, but that's not a round number, so... Regarding other stats,
beastlings are actually between primals and ultras in strength,
except for the lack of armor. I think just 1 -> 2 armor is a
minimum, to put it on par with tankling and roach armor. It
would be nicer if the beastling ability also affects gates, but
if that's hard to implement, then just a 10 -> 12 attack buff is
probably fine, so that it can 4-shot instead of 5-shot t1
marines.
Unit control
» Terran buff - Ladder rules: SCVs are missing a "halt
construction" command.
» Terran buff - Ladder rules: when you right-click
auto-repairing SCVs on a fully-repaired building, the SCVs
should still move towards the building first before looking
around for buildings to repair. I think this is actually the
same phenomenon as the 4th item in this list.
» Terran buff - I'm not sure if this is possible to implement,
but it would be nice if you could help players control which
direction an SCV goes after finishing a wall. 90% of the time it
goes downwards and gets eaten if you're a terran on the top half
of the map.
» Both buff - Ladder rules: right-clicking your army on your own
building or unit while retreating shouldn't cause everyone to
turn around and start firing again. On ladder, right-clicking is
treated as a move command. I'm guessing there's some sort of
tether radius thing going on, where in Zerg Hex the unit only
needs to get a whopping 5 range close to the target before it
thinks it has reached it. This affects ranged units for both
zerg and terran, but not melee units. On ladder, all units need
to approach 1 range before it's satisfied.
» Zerg buff - Infestors and hydras should have push priority.
Sheep - Zerg buff
Your creeper squad sneaks into the terran main undetected, and
you spy some delicious sheep! You pounce... and five seconds
later the reapers are on top of you and you haven't killed
anything. Lolwut. Since sheep are fairly fast compared to speed
1 zerg and have 15 hp, they actually survive for 5 seconds
against 1 ling, or 6 seconds against 1 creeper. This is because
with their HP regen, lings need 4 hits, and creepers need 5 hits
to kill one sheep. I say 15 -> 12 hp is reasonable. Otherwise,
zerg has very little practical chance of sniping sheep against
halfway competent terrans, besides just completely overunning
the terran.
Allied units in dying terran bases - Terran buff
You warp an italis over to an ally's base, and the ally promptly
ragequits. Um... I think italis's should be warped back to home
base and frozen for X time or some other variant, as a partial
refund. Regular units like marines and reapers should be
refunded as if the ally typed "-clear". That being said, it
might instead be wiser to have the units teleported outside the
rocks of the dead terran, since there should still be that sense
of risk of trying to save a dead ally who is legitimately still
trying to survive.
Resource traders - Terran buff
I have several distinct thoughts about this, and each tackle
different aspects of resource trading. Interestingly enough, it
takes 10 seconds to build a trader, which gives your ally a
profit of 40 resources if it can make the 80-90 second
expedition successfully. If I did the math correctly, this is
240 resources / min, which is equal to 6 upgraded gases, or
about 5 cows on farms. The mineral profit is meh, but the gas
profit is crazy! If it's so good, why doesn't anyone use it?
(1) "Sure, I can trade with my neighbor and we both get bonuses,
but how do I know that he'll send the same amount of traders as
I do?" - To solve this, have the trader automatically send
itself back to home base (perhaps after a 10 second delay).
(2) "My neighbor and I connected our walls to trade. But now we
have a lot of land and gases for some sick eco. We don't need
traders anymore." The ones who need trading the most are the
ones who are under siege in the first place. In order to make
trading feasible, traders will need a very large
buff,[color=orange] like an immortal's barrier, or
blink[/color]. Correspondingly, though, "traders" should then be
debuffed to be closer to "senders," and so their cost should go
up from 60 -> 80.
(3) Incidentally, resource traders should be able to return
cargo to the sender, in case of misclick or an aborted
expedition. Or just noobs. If possible, returning the cargo can
be disabled if the trader leaves home base.
Initial creep tumor - Zerg buff?
A lot of zergs kill the creep tumors adjacent to their large
spines. Do them a favor and just get rid of some of them. The
mid-side spines still survive from the inner hatchery's creep,
but the mid-mid spines need a tumor still, so keep those (maybe
adjust their position a bit, or split the true center tumor into
two?)
Mineral extractor - Zerg buff?
I understand zerg eco very well, but even now I have issues
interpreting what's going on in the mineral extractor tooltips.
Replace the second "Spawner Income Info" tooltip with a "you
have X number of extractors and greater extractors for a total
of Y effective extractors" kind of tooltip, so that it has the
same formatting as the first "Extract Minerals" tooltip. On that
note, those names should also be changed, probably.
#Post#: 2140--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: ZergTriumph Date: July 2, 2021, 11:18 am
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[quote author=Unicorn link=topic=239.msg2139#msg2139
date=1625237847]
Unit control
» Terran buff - Ladder rules: SCVs are missing a "halt
construction" command.
» Terran buff - Ladder rules: when you right-click
auto-repairing SCVs on a fully-repaired building, the SCVs
should still move towards the building first before looking
around for buildings to repair. I think this is actually the
same phenomenon as the 4th item in this list.
» Terran buff - I'm not sure if this is possible to implement,
but it would be nice if you could help players control which
direction an SCV goes after finishing a wall. 90% of the time it
goes downwards and gets eaten if you're a terran on the top half
of the map.
» Both buff - Ladder rules: right-clicking your army on your own
building or unit while retreating shouldn't cause everyone to
turn around and start firing again. On ladder, right-clicking is
treated as a move command. I'm guessing there's some sort of
tether radius thing going on, where in Zerg Hex the unit only
needs to get a whopping 5 range close to the target before it
thinks it has reached it. This affects ranged units for both
zerg and terran, but not melee units. On ladder, all units need
to approach 1 range before it's satisfied.
» Zerg buff - Infestors and hydras should have push priority.
[/quote]
All of Unicorn's ideas are good, but I would make these a
priority. These would go a long way toward making gameplay less
frustrating.
#Post#: 2141--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: ZergTriumph Date: July 2, 2021, 8:53 pm
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I propose locking capacity behind Armor 2. A lot of zergs are
determined to research Armor 1 early just so they can unlock
capacity.
#Post#: 2142--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: RickSanchez Date: July 3, 2021, 2:46 am
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#Post#: 2143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: ZergTriumph Date: July 3, 2021, 10:33 am
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[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=239.msg2142#msg2142
date=1625298381]
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=239.msg2141#msg2141
date=1625277195]
I propose locking capacity behind Armor 2. A lot of zergs are
determined to research Armor 1 early just so they can unlock
capacity.
[/quote]
sounds like a save way to lose a game :D
imagine cripple your eco, to more cripple your eco xD
[/quote]
I literally had a zerg do that against me, then complain that
the patch was unfair to zerg.
#Post#: 2144--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: scdpride Date: July 3, 2021, 8:17 pm
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i think the first most important patch to do is redo the ranking
system.
it should be base kind of like Zone control or ladder? elo
scoring is based on the overall average terran or zerg ELO
this will boost more ppl joinig this one vs the orginal imo
#Post#: 2145--------------------------------------------------
Re: Community Version Balance Feedback
By: BigNoob Date: July 4, 2021, 3:28 am
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why are you guys so obsessed with forcing a playstyle down
zerg's throat? There are legitimate scenarios that involve a few
capacity upgrades which can punish a terran who's spread too
thin too early.
I really can't rationalize your obsession as anything other than
some inability to understand that new Z who aren't shown the
ropes properly will play badly and overspend on capacity. If the
problem with capacity is that bad Z shoot themselves in the
foot, then just teach them. If they're not listening and your
ego can't handle it, then just leave and move on.
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