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#Post#: 1661--------------------------------------------------
Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Turb007 Date: January 13, 2021, 4:10 pm
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Right off the bat, I'm going to say that this post is mainly for
WMaster's eyes. However, if you have any other suggestions feel
free to add them and/or help me bump this thread (yes I am going
to bump this until I get a response from him :P).
Aight, so there have been numerous really good ideas posted on
this forum and I can't help but feel they keep getting
overlooked, as I have not seen WMaster respond to any of them.
This is an attempt to compile those good ideas so WMaster can
easily see them (trying to read everyones suggestions throughout
multiple threads is quite time consuming).
First off, I really like the majority of your ideas for upcoming
patches. I've liked almost all of the changes you've made so
far. I hope I've made this clear, I WANT most of the proposed
changes for future patches - I think most players do. BUT there
are glaring issues with the game right now that can seemingly be
easily fixed in 2-3 patches (Spellcasters may be a bit tricker,
not sure). AKA I think the majority of the regular player base
would like these changes done BEFORE any more of the proposed
changes.
I'll break this into two parts. Part one is the stuff that would
be awesome if they are implemented ASAP. Part two is side-stuff
that would be really awesome but is not really a pressing
concern.
PART ONE:
Main concerns:
- Very low skill ceiling for Zerg
- There is no reason to make Primals or Ultralisks and it's
rarely worth it to make Brutalisks (I'm leaving Tanklings out of
this for now as it's been discussed too much already lately)
Issue #1: 2 bad Zerg players kill 4-5 noob Terran players, full
spawner/cap openings kills all of the new or mediocre
players/forces them inside and then the remaining decent
player(s) get full focused and can't do anything to win the
game. Effectively creating the scenario where 2 horrible Zerg
players will win vs 1-2 good/very good Terran players (this is
VERY common in pubs)
Issue #2: 2 good zerg players have no way of surviving
early/mid-game against 3-4 good Terran players
Therefore, Zerg needs to be buffed but not in the sense that 2
horrible zergs are even more buffed. The answer here is to raise
the skill ceiling of Zerg / buff Zerg in a way that takes
skill/micro (aka NOT static Zerg buffs).
Suggested ways of dealing with issue #1:
- Remove capacity upgrade from T1 spawners
- Reduce the effect of capacity upgrade on T1 spawners by 1
- Require Armor 1 to unlock capacity upgrade (potentially tweak
cost?)
Suggested ways of dealing with issue #2 (raising Zerg skill
cap):
- Changes in Hydras
- Spellcasters
Ideas to change Hydras elaborated:
- " I think those could and should be the early game defensive
unit. Problem is as already discussed in other threads: A: they
are a bit too expensive for what they do. B: their health regen
should be much higher. I'm thinking of a 10s out of combat boost
or sth along those lines. C: in order for them to be usefull in
the lategame maybe combine the hydra size ups with armor 2/3/4
or 3/4/5." - Mett Gaming
- "Less mineral cost ... Limit of hydras linked to zerg's supply
ups (this would be my favourite, cause the more eco you make the
more supply ups you have, but less army, creating a dynamic of
less army --> more hydras and more army --> less hydras) ... 3
hydras max at start +1 per supply up" - Speed
- Personally would like a combo of both of these ideas
Ideas for Spellcasters elaborated:
- "Rework infestor units (except Torra) to serve a spellcaster
role rather than simply statballs. If needed, increase the spawn
time to fit with the power of the new abilities." - Statistics
- Idea of lurkers (potentially energy based/have to micro the
attack?)
- Idea of temp. wall builders (basically Sentry - Forcefield)
- Other ideas?
Random Defensive Ideas:
- "Replace the second tier of Hatcheries in the Zerg Base with
Lairs, which have a powerful 1/game defensive option. (My first
thought was something similar to Stukov's infest from Co-Op, but
I will leave the ability up to you)." - Statistics
PART TWO:
Other Suggestions (not as important but would be very nice):
- "Maybe make mineral spawners shared instead of unit spawners?"
- Reh
- Alternatively: "Double the amount of eco each mineral
extractor gives from every spawner but only count your own
spawners, not your teammates." - tryptophan
- "Reduce the huge disadvantage for Zerg when a Terran leaves
before 2:15" - Everyone *Edit: See Reply #4 by Mett Gaming*
- "Rework supply upgrades" - Team of people
- "Rework Infestors" - Bunch of people
Elaborate on reworking supply upgrades:
((supply cost increase per upgrade*spawner-supply cost)/45) ---
Basically the supply up is figured into the increasing cost of
spawners. -- See Spectre for details.
When spawners are destroyed, the mineral refund goes into an
internal bank that can only be spent on spawners. This allows
the Zerg to have more consistent macro/increases the skill
ceiling. Also removes the advantage of mineral pooling for
supply ups. Visually the internal bank could just show as the
reduced spawner cost (along with an internal supply counter).
Elaborate on reworking Infestors:
- Infestors are specifically Spellcasters, do not spawn Infestor
units
- Infestor units can still be built via advanced building
(ultimately from a drone)
- Transfuse cooldown on infestors (2-3 seconds?)
- Infestors have say, 2 charges of transfuse (or make transfuse
cost minerals)
I think if some of these things are implemented in one patch,
and tweaked in a hotfix/second patch. We could probably balance
everything within a few weeks imo. Then we can figure out what
the best way of fixing the "roach/infused roach > everything"
problem (supply upgrade idea may already slightly help with
this).
Please let me know what you think @WMaster. Alternatively we can
discuss this on Discord sometime if you would like. *Edit:
Please see Reply #1 from Statistics*
#Post#: 1663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Statistics Date: January 13, 2021, 5:44 pm
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I would also like to highlight the "skill expression" part of
this argument, as I feel it's one of the main issues that this
game has had while I've been playing.
The general idea should be that the more "skill"/effort required
to execute a strategy, the greater the potential rewards. Let's
start with a good example of this: Strikeling Balls. It has
clear positives (high eco, high potential damage) but also
negatives (letting Terrans expand more freely, requiring some
micro/unit control). It also has adequate and fair counters,
those being walls and shock troopers. So, a skilled Zerg
properly making use of Strikeling balls will be able to either
deal decent damage to an unprepared Terran's economy, or force
the prepared Terran to spend his economy on shocks and walls,
putting him further behind.
Zerg Hex needs more of these options. Perhaps in one situation,
Strikelings aren't the right tool - instead, Beastlings may be
the correct play, or Tanklings, or an Ultralisk Rush. Each unit
should have something unique to offer and be viable in at least
one situation. In order to fully optimize the value one gets
from these units, they should require Zerg micro/focus. Standard
melee SC2 is full of these little micro adjustments that, over
time, add up into a great advantage. Zerg Hex currently lacks
these.
On the other hand, this game has also suffered greatly from the
opposite: Low skilled options that can result in huge
advantages, or require significant effort from the other side to
counter. The two most blatant examples are 4.5 Tanklings and 3.X
Firebats, neither of which required much skill to execute but
were extremely punishing to players who weren't aware and/or
prepared to stop them. This is anathema to the idea of skill
expression in an RTS and should be considered bad game design.
It also feels "dirty" for players to win by abusing an
overpowered strategy. Players love being rewarded for pulling
off a high skill/high risk play that wins them the game, or lets
them feel superior to their opponents. Outplay potential, macro
wins, skill expression, those are the things that most players
find most rewarding, and I'd wager a good portion of Zerg Hex's
playerbase sticks with the game because of that.
#Post#: 1666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Oayoo Date: January 14, 2021, 1:42 am
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I think that this is some kind of perfect thread :)
I hope Wmaster will read that ! well done guys.
#Post#: 1671--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Turb007 Date: January 14, 2021, 9:27 pm
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Bump day number 1
#Post#: 1673--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Mett Gaming Date: January 15, 2021, 7:24 am
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@Turb007
could you add reworking early leaver bonus pls? Make it so zerg
doesn't lose supply. Idea would be removing spawners and
extractors as it is but keeping the 30 supply. Or as I believe
it was oyaoo suggested adding a cheaper supply upgrade to get
back the lost supply.
Just yesterday I had the situation again were in a fairly
stacked lobby on of the terrans just left because I managed to
break his early wall and kill a couple scvs. Basicly meaning the
game was over after 2mins... Feel like the zerg should not be
punished for outmicroing a greedy terran ;)
Good job on summarizing the community wish list!
#Post#: 1674--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Speed Date: January 15, 2021, 7:30 am
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"early wall... greedy terran"
Those two don't go with each other lol.
#Post#: 1675--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Turb007 Date: January 15, 2021, 7:46 am
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[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=169.msg1673#msg1673
date=1610717085]
@Turb007
could you add reworking early leaver bonus pls? Make it so zerg
doesn't lose supply. Idea would be removing spawners and
extractors as it is but keeping the 30 supply. Or as I believe
it was oyaoo suggested adding a cheaper supply upgrade to get
back the lost supply.
Just yesterday I had the situation again were in a fairly
stacked lobby on of the terrans just left because I managed to
break his early wall and kill a couple scvs. Basicly meaning the
game was over after 2mins... Feel like the zerg should not be
punished for outmicroing a greedy terran ;)
Good job on summarizing the community wish list!
[/quote]
I currently have: "- 'Reduce the huge disadvantage for Zerg when
a Terran leaves before 2:15' - Everyone" in part two of the
post. This can be fixed in numerous ways such as the ways you
stated, but could also be fixed where the Zerg keeps the spires
and has the mineral deficit adjusted accordingly, etc. So I
figured I'd keep it vague so he can fix it however he chooses as
long as it makes sense. I agree though! I will throw an edit in
directing to your post - shows support for the idea if nothing
else, more the support the merrier :D
#Post#: 1680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Turb007 Date: January 17, 2021, 11:57 am
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Bump day number 2
#Post#: 1683--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: blah Date: January 17, 2021, 9:36 pm
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the lack of map development may be limited by the creator's
personal time limitations. An option would be for volunteer
community developers like in undead assault.
#Post#: 1685--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg Patch (4.7??)
By: Turb007 Date: January 18, 2021, 4:29 pm
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[quote author=blah link=topic=169.msg1683#msg1683
date=1610940991]
the lack of map development may be limited by the creator's
personal time limitations. An option would be for volunteer
community developers like in undead assault.
[/quote]
There has been volunteers for assistant game devs for some time.
I don't think WMaster is too fond of the idea however. Perhaps
he may change his mind at some point though? Who knows.
Bump day number 3
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