DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Zerg Hex Forum
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Balance Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 1617--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Hecari Date: January 11, 2021, 10:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Oops, yes I was wrong, and somehow forgot that Slowlings and
Tanklings have the same spawning limit. Maybe I confused base
capacity with capacity upgrade? Regardless, in that case it
tilts it even more in favor of Tanklings, no?
And yes, my "%HP" suggestion was intended to mean something
along the lines of "Tanklings deal an additional 5% of Wall's
maximum HP per hit" in order to allow them to be useful even if
Terran upgrades their walls for more HP and Repair rate. This
would simultaneously keep them manageable versus "kill them
before they reach you" Terrans and scary versus "I'll repair my
walls faster than they take damage" Terrans. (Number intended
for example purposes only--5% max HP would be incredibly strong)
One thing I'm concerned about is perhaps even with these
changes, Tanklings could prove to be too effective against
expanding Terrans. They often rely on a Construction Yard-side
wall to cover the other entrances, and giving Zerg an easy tool
to bypass that might be too strong still. An expanding Terran
would effectively have to defend an extra entrance, while one
gas turtling Terrans would still only need to defend one. I'm
not sure if this is a problem solveable by the current Tankling
design, but it's worth pointing it out.
#Post#: 1625--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: GrumpyKitten Date: January 11, 2021, 11:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=160.msg1583#msg1583
date=1610202487]
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=160.msg1582#msg1582
date=1610201152][...]Altho 2-3 dmg reduction would be an
understandable nerf, so it will become a useless unit
again.[...][/quote]
Why should a tankling have superior damage at all when its role
is to drain energy. Increasing the scaling is imo the only
suitable solution to make them viable without shifting their
role.
[/quote]
Because you will just build a single unit of wall and hold it
with an scv.
Or just double wall yourself fully, and repair as the same.
Something something about bunkering terrans.
How can a unit drain energy, if it's not a threat to you?
Whatever, i think this was not as bad as a problem as most of
you depicted. It got nerfed to the ground neverthless, and wont
be used by anyone.
Just a note on Mett's video, and comments:
I really fail to see any problem with the video. Everything was
built on him, and he got pushed back. I even think that if zerg
builds more slowlings instead of tanklings you would have fallen
back faster.
There is nothing new about focusing 1 terran and sending him
back to HG.
Would be good to see the replay too, if capacity was in play too
or not.
Whatever, tankling got nerfed and i dont give a damn about it
actually. It's just this was blown waaaaay out of proportion
#Post#: 1626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Mett Gaming Date: January 11, 2021, 12:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
on the contrary grumpy. Slowlings would not have been able to
push me back fully. I could have "easily" held at least 1 farm
and 1 gas on the lowground and pushed back out from there. I
have a number of videos showcasing that exact scenario. And you
can see I was doing just fine against the non tankling units
while recieving almost all of the other guys units aswell. Not
saying I would have 100% held my wall that early but there was a
chance I could have.
So yes tanklings definitely encourage turtleing because the only
place you are relatively safe from them is infact up your ramp.
And I think I voiced that very clearly in the video.
for background info: it was actually played on the first day of
the patch and I was still relatively inexperienced with the new
tanklings. The more time went by I would just resort to ioning
sooner and not even try to re-establish my lowground for 11
mins, thus delaying my ion for said time.
Take from that what you will. But at least I felt very encourage
to turtle harder than before and I'd like to think that says
something. Can't of course speak for the more casual players.
But if speed feels the same way and I saw on video that he does
that should really say something :). After all we are "decent"
players. More decent than most at that too.
But I feel like so many good suggestions have been voiced here
on how to change tanklings to make them do what they initially
were intended to do. None of them made it in the game (yet??).
So now they are back to a slightly less but nonetheless useless
state they were in before. Which is definitely an improvement.
#Post#: 1628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: deorai037 Date: January 11, 2021, 2:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
A few more games in this patch, I 100% think that the best, most
realistic strat for most people will be rushing ion after
turtling 1-gas.
A) Infestor instant cast buff has been very, very powerful. Even
after tanklings are nerfed, infestors are more crucial than ever
to protect large spines. T1 marine pushing has been made
substantially more difficult by virtue of that subtle buff
alone. I see this (on its own) as a good sign, as infestors can
help cover the gap between t1 marines coming online and roaches
coming online, meaning that the crucial survival window for Z is
more reasonable for the majority of middle/above average zerg to
handle. In fact, at times I actually question if they might
actually be too strong now; barring a coordinated double push, Z
can very, very easily outheal huge amounts of Terran damage, to
the point where pushing aggressively and early is likely to have
more costs than benefits for T (at least ion damage on hive
can't be healed!)
B) The absurdly high damage that tanklings do *heavily* punishes
people who expand out aggressively while requiring virtually no
skill or micro, and heavily rewards people who expand cautiously
and wall up hard. Literally, if you don't have walls up before
tanklings arrive, you won't be able to get walls up until the
Zerg inevitably decides to f2 someone else. There is no
realistic pushing against heavy tankling pressure for a solid
90% of the playerbase here, where in the past people could
generally attempt a 1-gas comeback after enough time. The
tanklings kill virtually anything Terran can build faster than
it can finish building, especially fruit farms, and since you
can't repair buildings under construction it's generally
pointless to try.
C) On the other hand, a fast con yard 1-gas wall actually holds
up really well against early tankling pressure. Built correctly
(with sneak gates on the side to get extra gas income whenever
the Z stops paying attention), it holds far better against mass
tankling F2s, with the turtler suffering minimal damage. On the
other hand, fruit farms not guarded by double walls + shocks +
lots of energy to spare? bam half your base just got wiped in
seconds due to that sweet sweet +9 damage.
D) Most importantly, despite their effectiveness in fucking over
every human player (as opposed to the occasional part-AI
micro+strategic gods we occasionally see), tanklings are also
still good at slowing down the Zerg economy, often
substantially. Sure, fast tanklings can force one player back
in, but if you want to force a second player in, or keep the
first player pushed in for good, you're going to need more
tankling spawners, meaning your eco ends up falling about as far
behind as you've set back the Terrans' eco. If the first two
players screwed over by tanklings just 1-gas eco, the third has
just enough eco to keep back tanklings with forces, meaning that
a good Terran still poses a threat. However, for the other two
who got wiped early on, if they went for 1-gas con yard turtle
after the wipes, there's a solid chance they'll catch up enough
to ion early enough anyways. Furthermore, that one surviving
Terran is largely left to push alone if they want to hit decent,
if somewhat delayed, timings, except buffed infestors make solo
pushing far more difficult, even with support...
#Post#: 1629--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: RickSanchez Date: January 11, 2021, 3:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=deorai037 link=topic=160.msg1628#msg1628
date=1610398763]outdated text[/quote]
you wrote that essay for so long that it actually is invalid now
since 4.6 happend..
also i disagree on several other parts
#Post#: 1631--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Speed Date: January 11, 2021, 5:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=deorai037 link=topic=160.msg1628#msg1628
date=1610398763]
A few more games in this patch, I 100% think that the best, most
realistic strat for most people will be rushing ion after
turtling 1-gas.
[/quote]
Nooooooooo, you can't turtle against the turtle breaker unit!
Haha, Yard aura go brrrrrr
x)
Yup, at some point there is no (worthwhile) coming back, better
to turtle up, get a lab and send energy to a terran that managed
to actually upgrade his marines. If there is no terran...
straight ion / 1 italis into ion it is...^^ And get all those
juicy yard gas generation upgrades, will be very useful.
#Post#: 1637--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: deorai037 Date: January 12, 2021, 6:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=160.msg1629#msg1629
date=1610400200]
[quote author=deorai037 link=topic=160.msg1628#msg1628
date=1610398763]outdated text[/quote]
you wrote that essay for so long that it actually is invalid now
since 4.6 happend..
also i disagree on several other parts
[/quote]
No kidding I literally fell asleep while writing it and I'm
happy that it's no longer valid with 4.6 out.
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page