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#Post#: 1587--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: GrumpyKitten Date: January 9, 2021, 10:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=160.msg1583#msg1583
date=1610202487]
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=160.msg1582#msg1582
date=1610201152][...]Altho 2-3 dmg reduction would be an
understandable nerf, so it will become a useless unit
again.[...][/quote]
Why should a tankling have superior damage at all when its role
is to drain energy. Increasing the scaling is imo the only
suitable solution to make them viable without shifting their
role.
Giving them +1 Armor and +2HP on every Armor Upgrade will make
them a good and useful unit to drain over the full duration of
the game.
An "Armor 3 Tankling" with 3 Armor and 56HP will almost
invalidate T1 Marines on their own but instead of ripping
everything they just stack on a wall if they drained terrans
generator.
If you need to break a wall upgrade to Armor 2 and get Ravators
or Banelings.
*e* have talked to others.. they think 4th wallbreaker unit is a
godgiven good thing.....
if YOU agree i vote for rename to "busterling" or idk something
fitting. :)
[/quote]
I did not say it should. What i said, was that it is not useless
right now, and not broken op like most of you try to say.
There is no debate for me that terrans SHOULD be able to get 3
gas if they want. I think if we want to ensure this, put a CD on
capacity upgrade for like 5 min.
I think we should not focus on thankling, idk if it stays like
that or not. Zerg has no midgame, if terrans get shattering,
there is no stopping them.
Since the roach patch, zerg can only win by getting bad terrans.
So either you win by lobby, or you loose 95%.
The effect is enhanced by that experienced players dont wanna
play zerg, as they know its almost auto loose. So they go
terran, and some random noob will play zerg.
I mean if we have like 5-6 experienced terrans -> all of them go
to terran. If zerg wasnt this bad, it would split in 3-4 vs 2
and have a decent game.
I really dont wanna use strong language and what the creator
should and should not do, cuz he invests his time on this, and
it's his game. I think most of you here is disrespectful, and
outright rude to him.
Others said: zerg midgame needs buff, and i agree. We just need
ideas, and conversation on how.
Smith had the idea to bring back the old roach, and just swap
around with primals, and i am fully supporting this. Okay, some
tweaking should be done around hp-supply cost-ect.
#Post#: 1589--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: RickSanchez Date: January 9, 2021, 10:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=160.msg1587#msg1587
date=1610208669][...]I think we should not focus on
tankling[...][/quote]
While I agree on most parts, it is literally the topic of this
thread.
#Post#: 1590--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Turb007 Date: January 9, 2021, 1:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
My view: Tanklings were meant to drain energy, not kill
walls/fruit farms/etc. I personally would like to have kept them
this way, but buff them in a way that makes sense, such as what
Rick is saying.
But now, they're meant to deal with bunkers in the early-mid
game. If this is how WMaster wants them to be used, thats fine.
However, they don't deal with bunkers at all. If anything, it
forces a terran to make an extra defender and then they just sit
on the out-healing walls as per usual. By the time the zerg can
afford attack ups, terran has italis. The tankings are
ENCOURAGING people to bunker (especially with the yard gas ups,
though I'm not against that change), because they kill non-yard
buffed walls/fruit farms/etc increadibly quickly. I don't think
this is what they were meant for. In every pub I've played, even
very bad zergs are just going mass tankling/creeper for their
first 2 supply, which ends up killing atleast half the lobby and
the rest are forced into turtling. Sure this hurts zergs eco,
but sacrificing 3-4 minutes of eco to kill half the lobby and to
force the other half into turtling before 10ish minutes? Even
the brainless zergs can win that - quick infestors, eco super
hard, etc. Therefore, pubs are not fun at all in this patch imo,
not when almost every zerg does this. Therefore, they certainly
need nerfed. But tanklings are meant to deal with bunkers and
they already can't do that, so what is going to be their purpose
if the damage to structures is nerfed? This is why I don't like
the idea of tanklings being used to deal with bunkers - my
stance.
#Post#: 1593--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: WMaster Date: January 10, 2021, 1:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
There seems to be debate on what Tanklings should be meant for,
however I would like to try out for them to be some sort of
early bunker buster. So it may reduce focus on players not
creating walls, because they would otherwise be the only viable
target.
I don't quite see how the change would specifically encourage
bunkering. The way I see it, you might choose between getting
enough DPS to propel them or to invest into enough defense.
Reapers I think could do well against early Tankling aggression
as they do not require energy which would otherwise be drained
quickly. Combining them with an Armory so they profit from +2
damage might also help.
With trying to solve a problem there comes another one, and that
is that Zerg is now able to focus a single target and has all
the tools to bring them down early. I don't think it's
inherently bad that Zerg has a possible counter to all
strategies, but there should be some balance. It's also
difficult to allow a single Terran to contest against the full
might of a Zerg that has income to face 3 opponents. If Terran
were to hold that, then the best option for Zerg is to simply
ignore the early game and eco for later. We have had versions
where this was the case. I think there is a fine line of
balancing such that Zerg early game is not too weak compared to
its later game strategies.
That said, I do think going mass Tanklings early is a bit too
strong when reading the responses, so I think I'll bring down
their DPS to about 76% of what's currently and see if it helps.
What also could help is for Firebats to be available a bit
sooner so they can help with any type of light unit mass. I'm
thinking they could come directly with the Tech Lab, or a
possibility to train a single Firebat at higher cost available
from the start, lets say a cost of 100 gas and 0 minerals. I
think the latter option could be quite nice, it slows down the
tech for Terran, but allowing, for when the situation suits it,
to defend against early masses.
Let me know what you think of the Firebat options. Perhaps make
another topic for it if it's detailed.
#Post#: 1594--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Adam Date: January 10, 2021, 1:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=WMaster link=topic=160.msg1593#msg1593
date=1610305467]
There seems to be debate on what Tanklings should be meant for,
however I would like to try out for them to be some sort of
early bunker buster. So it may reduce focus on players not
creating walls, because they would otherwise be the only viable
target.
I don't quite see how the change would specifically encourage
bunkering. The way I see it, you might choose between getting
enough DPS to propel them or to invest into enough defense.
Reapers I think could do well against early Tankling aggression
as they do not require energy which would otherwise be drained
quickly. Combining them with an Armory so they profit from +2
damage might also help.
With trying to solve a problem there comes another one, and that
is that Zerg is now able to focus a single target and has all
the tools to bring them down early. I don't think it's
inherently bad that Zerg has a possible counter to all
strategies, but there should be some balance. It's also
difficult to allow a single Terran to contest against the full
might of a Zerg that has income to face 3 opponents. If Terran
were to hold that, then the best option for Zerg is to simply
ignore the early game and eco for later. We have had versions
where this was the case. I think there is a fine line of
balancing such that Zerg early game is not too weak compared to
its later game strategies.
That said, I do think going mass Tanklings early is a bit too
strong when reading the responses, so I think I'll bring down
their DPS to about 76% of what's currently and see if it helps.
What also could help is for Firebats to be available a bit
sooner so they can help with any type of light unit mass. I'm
thinking they could come directly with the Tech Lab, or a
possibility to train a single Firebat at higher cost available
from the start, lets say a cost of 100 gas and 0 minerals. I
think the latter option could be quite nice, it slows down the
tech for Terran, but allowing, for when the situation suits it,
to defend against early masses.
Let me know what you think of the Firebat options. Perhaps make
another topic for it if it's detailed.
[/quote]
problem with tanklings right now is that instead of breaking
turles and walls they are used to snipe eco buildings of
expanding terrans aka rafineries and fruit farms
they also render any posibility of early micro with scvs
repairing fruit farms to tank some dmg and so on totaly
imposible as they just bust thru any farm unless like 4-5 svs
repair it
#Post#: 1595--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: RickSanchez Date: January 10, 2021, 1:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=WMaster link=topic=160.msg1593#msg1593
date=1610305467][...]I would like (...) them to be some sort of
early bunker buster[...][/quote]
why not renaming it then? (busterling, siegeling, noobling i
dont know)
this expresses what i think about it (not only about the
firebats but the whole post)
HTML https://i.ibb.co/ZmHcJJH/jedi.png
Big big disappointment. i wish i could dislike twice.. are you
even playing your game?
[quote author=WMaster link=topic=160.msg1593#msg1593
date=1610305467][...]Combining them with an Armory so they
profit from +2 damage might also help.[...][/quote]
what a great advise. like a pro computer gamer. i try 1 minute
armory next game...
HTML https://i.ibb.co/bRn7r0y/8s8kyyg.jpg
Also what Adam says... if early anti-turtle is your goal you
missed it completly
#Post#: 1596--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Ecanos Date: January 10, 2021, 1:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
just of all.
the problem of zerg is the Red status at begin :D
it ruined the eco of both zergs :D
a shared eco like one zerg is really better, but 2 zergs ....
nord make tanklings make his bonus... he kill his eco a bit...
don t know.. last zerg game was really low, if not the same
tactic...
play zerg is ever really okay.
for me is the roach to low, if your NordZerg kill the supply/eco
power...
... handicap +x %
#Post#: 1597--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Ecanos Date: January 10, 2021, 1:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=WMaster link=topic=160.msg1593#msg1593
date=1610305467]
Let me know what you think of the Firebat options. Perhaps make
another topic for it if it's detailed.
[/quote]
i like the idea.
A building is a new Unit. (protoss gameplay)
(but Terrans has a extra button (That double funktion + Tech)
Techlab + armory = firebat :)
Yard = ? ? ? ? (defender/ Pylon / Walltech)
*without extra cost
*the cost of the firebat is the expensiv * * * * ever :D
#Post#: 1598--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Speed Date: January 10, 2021, 1:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=160.msg1594#msg1594
date=1610306173]
problem with tanklings right now is that instead of breaking
turles and walls they are used to snipe eco buildings of
expanding terrans aka rafineries and fruit farms
they also render any posibility of early micro with scvs
repairing fruit farms to tank some dmg and so on totaly
imposible as they just bust thru any farm unless like 4-5 svs
repair it
[/quote]
Yup. Tankling kills the expanding terrans, not the turtling
ones. I haven't tried instantly turtling up (screw that, losing
strategy lol), but I feel like I easily should get a wall up
before zerg can build anything on me, only F2 blindly at start
could be an issue. Not sure if I can afford & build a yard
before zerg gets tanklings up, but assuming I do I should be
able to hold on from there. This is assuming the worst-case
scenario of getting tanklinged right from the beginning, in
midgame when you have multi-layer wall with unified and 1-3
defenders linked tankling is a non-factor.
Therefore tankling is a tool to all-in expanding players, not a
tool to break bunker players.
#Post#: 1599--------------------------------------------------
Re: Perhaps Tanklings Are Overtuned
By: Turb007 Date: January 10, 2021, 2:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=WMaster link=topic=160.msg1593#msg1593
date=1610305467]
There seems to be debate on what Tanklings should be meant for,
however I would like to try out for them to be some sort of
early bunker buster. So it may reduce focus on players not
creating walls, because they would otherwise be the only viable
target.
I don't quite see how the change would specifically encourage
bunkering. The way I see it, you might choose between getting
enough DPS to propel them or to invest into enough defense.
Reapers I think could do well against early Tankling aggression
as they do not require energy which would otherwise be drained
quickly. Combining them with an Armory so they profit from +2
damage might also help.
[/quote]
"problem with tanklings right now is that instead of breaking
turles and walls they are used to snipe eco buildings of
expanding terrans aka rafineries and fruit farms
they also render any posibility of early micro with scvs
repairing fruit farms to tank some dmg and so on totaly
imposible as they just bust thru any farm unless like 4-5 svs
repair it" - Adam
^ This. There is no way to hold even 2 outer gases vs mass
tankling/creeper early game, can't really even hold more than 2
or 3 fruit farms unless you make an absurd amount of scvs.
Therefore its best to just turtle/bunker with 1 outer gas with
the con yard. Which, as I stated earlier, tanklings do NOT
counter (which is what you're trying to make them do) and
they'll be even more worthless vs bunkers if you decrease their
dps.
Reapers take far too long to kill tanklings with their high hp
and reapers low attack speed. You'd need to make an absurd
amount of them off of no eco because you can't hold fruit farms
(and are therefore stuck with sheep farms without the sheep but
sheep farms take far to long to build with only 1 gas). Yes
plenty of reapers and penetrating would be good against them,
but thats a 350 gas investment + gas for reapers + gas cost of
sheep farms all on top of only having 1 outer gas. Tanklings hit
far too early to have anywhere near close to any of that. Hence,
encouraging bunkering.
I'm certainly not trying to sound like a dick or anything btw.
I've liked a lot of the recent changes and am super glad this
game is being updated now and I like a lot of the new ideas. But
I just don't see this specific change being good in any way -
because again, tanklings need to be further BUFFED in order to
be an actual bunker buster - which leaves expanding terrans even
more helpless as fruit farms, gases, etc are nuked down
instantly within the first minutes of the game.
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