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#Post#: 1534--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: GrumpyKitten Date: January 6, 2021, 10:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=158.msg1527#msg1527
date=1609888302]
[quote author=ExtraLemon link=topic=158.msg1526#msg1526
date=1609886624]
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=158.msg1522#msg1522
date=1609878975]
I'm not sure what you are into boy, but your head need some oil
check.
I dont understand why ppl still cry about roach. It is now the
same as tankling was: eco cemetery.
I recon you refer to that Excel sheet some guy made, and the
conclusions yall made that roach is the best unit.
This is wrong on so many basis, that i cannot even express.
Let me explain with this:
It's like you saying Ace is the best card in poker. It is true,
in a sense, but you miss the whole point of the game. The game
winning mechanism in the game is not having the best card, but
having the best combinations of cards.
Same here:
The excel made only a rough estimate on how much energy it takes
to kill zerg units. This is while not a negligible part of the
game, but that is not the whole point.
It never calculate about how much time it takes to kill a unit.
What is the range of the marines? How much MS the zerg unit has?
If it can reach / kill any of your marines.
I still dont understand his calculation with shattering. You
just cannot calculate that into single unit killing. PERIOD.
This is the whole point of it: it damages nearby units too. If
you are talking about single unit, or single spawner like the
excel does, you cannot calculate shattering into. The whole idea
is wrong and the whole equation is wrong there. Maybe i am
missing something, really correct me if im stupid.
I mean dont misunderstand me, i'm not shitting on the kid who
made this, rather than shitting on you for taking it as face
value, and make statements like: cAlCuLaTiOnS sHoWn ThAt TaR
rOaCh Is BeTtEr ThAn PrImALs AnD uLtRas
The excel is OK until calculating how much energy is needed to
kill a single unit. Everything after is based on wrong equation,
thus completely wrong.
Stop shitting on roach. She suffered enough.
Roach is love
Roach is life.
[/quote]
Read the spreadsheet again. The spreadsheet assumes that shatter
is always bouncing to its max extent, so it's maximizing the
marine damage as much as possible. Shatter does 1/2 dmg,
bouncing 2 times, effectively doubling marine DPS. Roaches
conditionally outperform Primals and Ultralisks vs Veteran and
Elite Marines. That is all that the spreadsheet is saying. If
you want to bring in other factors, like Roaches moving quicker
then Ultralisks and coming in at a lower tech level, you aren't
exactly swinging it in favor of the Primals and the Ultralisks.
Finally, you can not call roaches an eco cemetery while also
ignoring that Primals and Ultralisks cost more, both in supply,
tech upgrades, and overall spawner cost. If you want to adjust
this to cost, Roaches are generally more efficient at tanking
Terran DPS then spawners which come in at a higher armor level.
[/quote]
Noooooooooooooo, you can't use facts and logic, that's not fair!
Clearly GrumpyKiddo outsmarted the spreadsheet by realizing
marines hit 3 targets so calculations based on 1 target must be
incorrect. How dare you outsmart his outsmarting??!
Lmao.
[/quote]
Cringe
#Post#: 1535--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Speed Date: January 6, 2021, 11:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=158.msg1534#msg1534
date=1609949896]
Cringe
[/quote]
Accurate self-description.
#Post#: 1536--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: blah Date: January 6, 2021, 12:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
and is the mineral cost reduction warranted? If the creator
thought it cost 120 and was planning to reduce it to 100, but it
already cost 100, does it make sense to reduce it to 80?
#Post#: 1537--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Speed Date: January 6, 2021, 12:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=blah link=topic=158.msg1536#msg1536
date=1609956716]
and is the mineral cost reduction warranted? If the creator
thought it cost 120 and was planning to reduce it to 100, but it
already cost 100, does it make sense to reduce it to 80?
[/quote]
Drone is 20 minerals, when spawner is 100 mins then total cost
is 120 ( pre patch 4.5), when spawner cost is 80 + drone then
total cost is 100.
#Post#: 1538--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: GrumpyKitten Date: January 6, 2021, 1:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ExtraLemon link=topic=158.msg1526#msg1526
date=1609886624]
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=158.msg1522#msg1522
date=1609878975]
I'm not sure what you are into boy, but your head need some oil
check.
I dont understand why ppl still cry about roach. It is now the
same as tankling was: eco cemetery.
I recon you refer to that Excel sheet some guy made, and the
conclusions yall made that roach is the best unit.
This is wrong on so many basis, that i cannot even express.
Let me explain with this:
It's like you saying Ace is the best card in poker. It is true,
in a sense, but you miss the whole point of the game. The game
winning mechanism in the game is not having the best card, but
having the best combinations of cards.
Same here:
The excel made only a rough estimate on how much energy it takes
to kill zerg units. This is while not a negligible part of the
game, but that is not the whole point.
It never calculate about how much time it takes to kill a unit.
What is the range of the marines? How much MS the zerg unit has?
If it can reach / kill any of your marines.
I still dont understand his calculation with shattering. You
just cannot calculate that into single unit killing. PERIOD.
This is the whole point of it: it damages nearby units too. If
you are talking about single unit, or single spawner like the
excel does, you cannot calculate shattering into. The whole idea
is wrong and the whole equation is wrong there. Maybe i am
missing something, really correct me if im stupid.
I mean dont misunderstand me, i'm not shitting on the kid who
made this, rather than shitting on you for taking it as face
value, and make statements like: cAlCuLaTiOnS sHoWn ThAt TaR
rOaCh Is BeTtEr ThAn PrImALs AnD uLtRas
The excel is OK until calculating how much energy is needed to
kill a single unit. Everything after is based on wrong equation,
thus completely wrong.
Stop shitting on roach. She suffered enough.
Roach is love
Roach is life.
[/quote]
Read the spreadsheet again. The spreadsheet assumes that shatter
is always bouncing to its max extent, so it's maximizing the
marine damage as much as possible. Shatter does 1/2 dmg,
bouncing 2 times, effectively doubling marine DPS. Roaches
conditionally outperform Primals and Ultralisks vs Veteran and
Elite Marines. That is all that the spreadsheet is saying. If
you want to bring in other factors, like Roaches moving quicker
then Ultralisks and coming in at a lower tech level, you aren't
exactly swinging it in favor of the Primals and the Ultralisks.
Finally, you can not call roaches an eco cemetery while also
ignoring that Primals and Ultralisks cost more, both in supply,
tech upgrades, and overall spawner cost. If you want to adjust
this to cost, Roaches are generally more efficient at tanking
Terran DPS then spawners which come in at a higher armor level.
[/quote]
Sooooooo.First of all for some reason you missed my main point:
How retarded general conclusion some guy made from the excel .
Namely: "tar roach is better than primals and ultras"
Do you agree with that statement?
Second of all:
The argument of me, stating - that guy is retarded - was that
it's not the game's main and or only aspect the energy
efficiency.
I think i don't have to further explain this: the game is
complex. Again: this was aimed at the statement.
Thrid:
"calculation with shattering. You just cannot calculate that
into single unit killing."
Do you agree with that?
I mean come on man. If you wanna argue about strawman arguments,
points that i did not make, let me know and i'll do the same.
It's literally there: you cannot calculate shattering into
single unit killing. This is a direct critique of the excel what
you defend so vividly, but still missing the point i made.
Whenever you make like a study or experiment, first you make
rules. The spreadsheet's first rule that it calculates data on
killing single units (single spawner units). Then it changes
halfway in to address shattering.
AND then calculates with that data, on how much marine you need
to defend against 1 spawner (based on bad equation, later
explained).
I'll just leave this here:
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias#Data
Whatever, i stated too: it is good for energy / unit but
everything after is wrong.
I really don't see your argument based on all of this... I think
this is a typical example when someone reacts based on what he
feels was communicated. You felt like i am attacking the
spreadsheet, when my main point was not that. (however yes, i
made points about the spreadsheet to prove my point)
--------------------------------------------------------
Again: this was a strawman argument, nevertheless i will address
it:
"If you want to bring in other factors, like Roaches moving
quicker then Ultralisks and coming in at a lower tech level, you
aren't exactly swinging it in favor of the Primals and the
Ultralisks. Finally, you can not call roaches an eco cemetery
while also ignoring that Primals and Ultralisks cost more, both
in supply, tech upgrades, and overall spawner cost. If you want
to adjust this to cost, Roaches are generally more efficient at
tanking Terran DPS then spawners which come in at a higher armor
level."
I don't want to bring in factors just for my entertainment, or
to be a smartass. The spreadsheet calculates: "Marines necessary
to defend against one spawner". How can you do that without
having AT LEAST the MS of different units? But let's just make a
broad measurement / statement that "3 seconds until roach reach
attack range of a marine". I'm okay with that, and you can
calculate that.
The equation it uses i think actually calculates how many
marines needed to kill X unit UNTIL the next spawns. So let's
say the ultra for example: 8 second respawn time -> the amount
of marines you need to kill an ultra in 8 second.
Then add to that: it calculate to this the flawed shattering dmg
to single unit killing, skewing this number much much more. It
effectively triples the marine single unit damage (when looking
at armor 3+ units against t1 marine) . Good luck holding 1 ultra
spawner with 5 marines with shattering. Nobody need to go ingame
testing this to know you wont hold an ultra sapwner even with 15
T1 marines. Or feel free to do it, and let me know the results.
So yeah, just as i said: it's nice calculation about energy
usage and stuff, nothing else. And the statement that was made
based on this is just pure single digit IQ.
#Post#: 1539--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: GrumpyKitten Date: January 6, 2021, 1:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=158.msg1535#msg1535
date=1609954576]
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=158.msg1534#msg1534
date=1609949896]
Cringe
[/quote]
Accurate self-description.
[/quote]
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Really? Kindergarten-style "no you"? This is a new low even from
you
Pls dont stop
#Post#: 1540--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: ZergTriumph Date: January 6, 2021, 1:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=158.msg1528#msg1528
date=1609889444]
Granted tanklings fall off as soon as the terran has enough
reapers/marines to shoot them down but that's not before 6-7
mins into the game.
[/quote]
And that's the problem. Wmaster is giving all his attention to
the zerg's options in the first 6-7 minutes of the game. What
about the rest of the game? Most games last more than half an
hour. And nearly every game is roach roach roach, because
primals and ultras are garbage. WMASTER ARE YOU LISTENING????
#Post#: 1541--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: RickSanchez Date: January 6, 2021, 1:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=158.msg1540#msg1540
date=1609962277][...] Most games last more than half an hour.
[...][/quote]
what garbage tier mates you're playing with? game has to be over
20-25 mins or terran missplayed and should lose. arguable ion is
too strong in that regard atm.
#Post#: 1542--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Speed Date: January 6, 2021, 3:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hmm hydra regeneration seems to be slow again, that's kinda sad.
Really felt like I could almost incorporate those into my
gameplay, but now with 6 minutes grow time and super slow
regeneration it's kinda a worthless unit to make x)
(Yes, it wasn't in patch notes, but I'm pretty sure it was there
and is gone now, maybe I'm just hallucinating though haha)
Tryptophan suggested on discord to make spawners give +2 income,
but only your own spawners count, removing the shared eco. While
this might have some balance issues, with how some people over /
underbuild spires and are unawere / too lazy to check tool tip
ratios it's a pain to eco efficiently with them. Would prefer it
if my eco was in my own control, affected by my own choices only
lol. I think most people would agree with this, I'm just a
little concerned to how it tips the game balance (dealing dmg to
a zerg will be a lot more severe for that 1 zerg's economy while
the other doesn't lose anything).
Played some solo games so I started to realize how much most
zerg suck at understanding how economy works lmao.
#Post#: 1543--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Hecari Date: January 6, 2021, 6:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The excel sheet is not simulating a situation where a Terran
army is facing exactly one spawner. It is estimating on average
how an additional spawner of each type will affect various
aspects of Terran economy. This reflects in-game situations.
Because of this, it is perfectly acceptable to factor in
shattering laser into damage calculations; on average, each unit
will be hit by twice as many shattering laser hits than direct
laser hits, so estimating it as such is absolutely accurate.
Please do not spread misinformation.
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