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#Post#: 1523--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Speed Date: January 5, 2021, 3:45 pm
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[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=158.msg1522#msg1522
date=1609878975]
I'm not sure what you are into boy, but your head need some oil
check.
I dont understand why ppl still cry about roach. It is now the
same as tankling was: eco cemetery.
Roach is love
Roach is life.
[/quote]
Something doesn't quite add up here. If you think it's eco
cemetery then why would you call it "love and life"? Some oil in
your head buddy.
#Post#: 1524--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Xcage Date: January 5, 2021, 4:13 pm
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so now the 0 iq tankling builders have their beloved unit buffed
into ridiculousness , nice, wonder how the number 12 damage to
structures for 80 minerals even came into reality.
#Post#: 1525--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Speed Date: January 5, 2021, 4:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Xcage link=topic=158.msg1524#msg1524
date=1609884839]
so now the 0 iq tankling builders have their beloved unit buffed
into ridiculousness , nice, wonder how the number 12 damage to
structures for 80 minerals even came into reality.
[/quote]
I would look less at their cost and more at the other options...
Slowlings deal 5 dmg, creepers deal 4. Both have significant
less HP compared to tankling. Creepers only advantage is their 2
range (and 1 more anti-unit dmg), slowlings are only better cost
wise and anti-unit dmg, every other stat, including movespeed is
worse. The worst part about this buff is that it literally only
affects early game, as soon as a terran has some good eco to
make units / even get armory and marine ups the tanklings will
be cleared easily... forgot strikes (lol), they have good dmg
but only 1 HP and die on attack^^.
Someone put it really well on discord... "at this point wmaster
should just add a button to delete the top 2 terrans from the
game". This is what games feel like, early game zerg try
identify the best terran on their side and proceed to all-in
them so they aren't pushed by that terran later. Behind the
all-in zerg build eco and pray that the free terrans suck too
much to do anything to them. Patch 4.5 literally doesn't change
this at all, zerg doesn't get anything for midgame, just some
more early game all-in power with the tankling anti-structure
dmg.
The tankling's job is to tank, not to demolish the terran base.
It might be inefficient / not worthwhile to invest for zerg due
to its cost and respawn time, but making it wreck buildings is
definetely ridicoulus.
#Post#: 1526--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: ExtraLemon Date: January 5, 2021, 4:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=158.msg1522#msg1522
date=1609878975]
I'm not sure what you are into boy, but your head need some oil
check.
I dont understand why ppl still cry about roach. It is now the
same as tankling was: eco cemetery.
I recon you refer to that Excel sheet some guy made, and the
conclusions yall made that roach is the best unit.
This is wrong on so many basis, that i cannot even express.
Let me explain with this:
It's like you saying Ace is the best card in poker. It is true,
in a sense, but you miss the whole point of the game. The game
winning mechanism in the game is not having the best card, but
having the best combinations of cards.
Same here:
The excel made only a rough estimate on how much energy it takes
to kill zerg units. This is while not a negligible part of the
game, but that is not the whole point.
It never calculate about how much time it takes to kill a unit.
What is the range of the marines? How much MS the zerg unit has?
If it can reach / kill any of your marines.
I still dont understand his calculation with shattering. You
just cannot calculate that into single unit killing. PERIOD.
This is the whole point of it: it damages nearby units too. If
you are talking about single unit, or single spawner like the
excel does, you cannot calculate shattering into. The whole idea
is wrong and the whole equation is wrong there. Maybe i am
missing something, really correct me if im stupid.
I mean dont misunderstand me, i'm not shitting on the kid who
made this, rather than shitting on you for taking it as face
value, and make statements like: cAlCuLaTiOnS sHoWn ThAt TaR
rOaCh Is BeTtEr ThAn PrImALs AnD uLtRas
The excel is OK until calculating how much energy is needed to
kill a single unit. Everything after is based on wrong equation,
thus completely wrong.
Stop shitting on roach. She suffered enough.
Roach is love
Roach is life.
[/quote]
Read the spreadsheet again. The spreadsheet assumes that shatter
is always bouncing to its max extent, so it's maximizing the
marine damage as much as possible. Shatter does 1/2 dmg,
bouncing 2 times, effectively doubling marine DPS. Roaches
conditionally outperform Primals and Ultralisks vs Veteran and
Elite Marines. That is all that the spreadsheet is saying. If
you want to bring in other factors, like Roaches moving quicker
then Ultralisks and coming in at a lower tech level, you aren't
exactly swinging it in favor of the Primals and the Ultralisks.
Finally, you can not call roaches an eco cemetery while also
ignoring that Primals and Ultralisks cost more, both in supply,
tech upgrades, and overall spawner cost. If you want to adjust
this to cost, Roaches are generally more efficient at tanking
Terran DPS then spawners which come in at a higher armor level.
#Post#: 1527--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Speed Date: January 5, 2021, 5:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ExtraLemon link=topic=158.msg1526#msg1526
date=1609886624]
[quote author=GrumpyKitten link=topic=158.msg1522#msg1522
date=1609878975]
I'm not sure what you are into boy, but your head need some oil
check.
I dont understand why ppl still cry about roach. It is now the
same as tankling was: eco cemetery.
I recon you refer to that Excel sheet some guy made, and the
conclusions yall made that roach is the best unit.
This is wrong on so many basis, that i cannot even express.
Let me explain with this:
It's like you saying Ace is the best card in poker. It is true,
in a sense, but you miss the whole point of the game. The game
winning mechanism in the game is not having the best card, but
having the best combinations of cards.
Same here:
The excel made only a rough estimate on how much energy it takes
to kill zerg units. This is while not a negligible part of the
game, but that is not the whole point.
It never calculate about how much time it takes to kill a unit.
What is the range of the marines? How much MS the zerg unit has?
If it can reach / kill any of your marines.
I still dont understand his calculation with shattering. You
just cannot calculate that into single unit killing. PERIOD.
This is the whole point of it: it damages nearby units too. If
you are talking about single unit, or single spawner like the
excel does, you cannot calculate shattering into. The whole idea
is wrong and the whole equation is wrong there. Maybe i am
missing something, really correct me if im stupid.
I mean dont misunderstand me, i'm not shitting on the kid who
made this, rather than shitting on you for taking it as face
value, and make statements like: cAlCuLaTiOnS sHoWn ThAt TaR
rOaCh Is BeTtEr ThAn PrImALs AnD uLtRas
The excel is OK until calculating how much energy is needed to
kill a single unit. Everything after is based on wrong equation,
thus completely wrong.
Stop shitting on roach. She suffered enough.
Roach is love
Roach is life.
[/quote]
Read the spreadsheet again. The spreadsheet assumes that shatter
is always bouncing to its max extent, so it's maximizing the
marine damage as much as possible. Shatter does 1/2 dmg,
bouncing 2 times, effectively doubling marine DPS. Roaches
conditionally outperform Primals and Ultralisks vs Veteran and
Elite Marines. That is all that the spreadsheet is saying. If
you want to bring in other factors, like Roaches moving quicker
then Ultralisks and coming in at a lower tech level, you aren't
exactly swinging it in favor of the Primals and the Ultralisks.
Finally, you can not call roaches an eco cemetery while also
ignoring that Primals and Ultralisks cost more, both in supply,
tech upgrades, and overall spawner cost. If you want to adjust
this to cost, Roaches are generally more efficient at tanking
Terran DPS then spawners which come in at a higher armor level.
[/quote]
Noooooooooooooo, you can't use facts and logic, that's not fair!
Clearly GrumpyKiddo outsmarted the spreadsheet by realizing
marines hit 3 targets so calculations based on 1 target must be
incorrect. How dare you outsmart his outsmarting??!
Lmao.
#Post#: 1528--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Mett Gaming Date: January 5, 2021, 5:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So after almost 6h of streaming I conclude:
1 The Yard:
noobtrap as expected does slightly buff 1 gas plays but not to
the extend that decent zerg can't deal with it and taking
additional gases is just more viable. The upgrade should be
disabled on the highground tho.
2. Beastlings
still kinda meh, still noone should build them and they get
heavily outshadowed by Tanklings. Which brings me to point 3:
3. Tanklings
Oh boy... Having been both on the recieving end on on the
transmitting (?I guess :D) they are definitely too strong. They
deal 9,23 dmg/s to buildings a single scv repairs for 8hp/s.
Meaning you need 1,15 scvs per tankling or 3 scvs per tankling
spawner. There have been situations were tanklings surrounding a
corner wall can outdamage any number of scvs because they don't
get enough repair surface. That leads to 2 things: as the terran
being focused you can't just build walls anymore to block off
one side. A squad of 4 tanklings can burst down any building in
seconds. My favourite tactic is to get gather my hitsquad and
walk it around the shooting units of the focused terran and
snipe off gases and fruit farms alike while there is nothing the
terran can do. And we all know how bad it is to lose early gases
and it's even worse to lose fruit farms.
The other issue is that they drain way too much energy and
basically render early marines useless. So you have to rely on
reapers to do the job. But that means if you are the only terran
on your side you will now be much easier put out of the game. My
favourite opener is to place 3 tanklings and 3 creepers on the
best terran. Before you had to micro against fruit farm walls
but now your tanklings will just eat them while creepers shoot
over the tanklings at the defending units. You don't even need
to upgrade anything, F2 or do any other nonesense that you
needed to do before. Just let your units do the job.
Granted tanklings fall off as soon as the terran has enough
reapers/marines to shoot them down but that's not before 6-7
mins into the game. The eco investment is also relatively
minimal. So after the first supply you can just go into eco
while the terran is basically out of the game until 15mins or
so. Add a couple of infestors at 6-7 mins and you just roll them
over with NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING that the terran can do to
defend himself on the lowground. You basically condemn him to an
ion game from the start and can then go to focus someone else.
Granted 3 good terrans can still easily defeat this but if your
teammates are garbage you may aswell just leave.
A possible fix to this is to lock tanklings behind A1. That
should give terrans some time to prepare for this and have a
chance to build up the forces to hold with good micro. On a site
not: not that its any good but with the new tanklings it is
possible to destroy the gates at the ramp with minimal
investment.
#Post#: 1530--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: blah Date: January 5, 2021, 7:32 pm
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doesn't the tankling already cost 100 minerals? like pre patch?
#Post#: 1531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: Mett Gaming Date: January 5, 2021, 7:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
ok having cooled off a little:
I do actually like these changes for what they are. A fresh
breeze into a stagnant meta. There is pros and cons to the new
tanklings. The cons have been listed ectensively above. On the
pro side: it does make zerg more viable in lobbies with 2 or
more good terrans. The con yard does mitigate tanklings somewhat
by allowing the pushed back player to get some benefits from
grapping at least one gas back. I do however feel like that
tanklings should get their old behavior back so they require at
least some micro to get damage done and give the terran the
opportunity to lead them away or stop them from automatically
targeting fruit farms that your units are standing on. Maybe
somebody would like to debate me on that.
I would like to see the unscannable zerg highground to be
implemented to stop terrans from reaching your inbase structures
from the sides.
[quote author=blah link=topic=158.msg1530#msg1530
date=1609896720]
doesn't the tankling already cost 100 minerals? like pre patch?
[/quote]
it does cost 80 now.
#Post#: 1532--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: blah Date: January 5, 2021, 7:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=158.msg1531#msg1531
date=1609896755]
ok having cooled off a little:
I do actually like these changes for what they are. A fresh
breeze into a stagnant meta. There is pros and cons to the new
tanklings. The cons have been listed ectensively above. On the
pro side: it does make zerg more viable in lobbies with 2 or
more good terrans. The con yard does mitigate tanklings somewhat
by allowing the pushed back player to get some benefits from
grapping at least one gas back. I do however feel like that
tanklings should get their old behavior back so they require at
least some micro to get damage done and give the terran the
opportunity to lead them away or stop them from automatically
targeting fruit farms that your units are standing on. Maybe
somebody would like to debate me on that.
I would like to see the unscannable zerg highground to be
implemented to stop terrans from reaching your inbase structures
from the sides.
[quote author=blah link=topic=158.msg1530#msg1530
date=1609896720]
doesn't the tankling already cost 100 minerals? like pre patch?
[/quote]
it does cost 80 now.
[/quote]
ok yea good to know.
Also, what is the point of having the beastling being made by
the infestor, it doesn't cost any energy. just add it to the
drone and price it accordingly. i didn't even realize it didn't
use energy, I just always assumed it did. i figured they weren't
popular because why invest the energy into that when it can be
saved for raves or infused. maybe players just assume it uses
energy.
#Post#: 1533--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.5
By: RickSanchez Date: January 6, 2021, 7:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=WMaster link=topic=158.msg1512#msg1512
date=1609854043]
Patch 4.5 went live on 05.01.2021
[list]
[li]Construction Yard
[list]
[li]Added research/ability: Gas Extraction (1/2/3 gas per 3
seconds when built outside the main base)[/li]
[li]Added passive ability: Solid Foundation (Boosts Gas
Extraction after 5 minutes of construction).[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Fortifaction Upgrade
[list]
[li]Decreased wall and gates armor gain from 2 to 1.[/li]
[li]Increased wall and gates health gain from +25% to +30%.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Tankling
[list]
[li]Now attacks closest target instead of closest attacking
target.[/li]
[li]Now deals +9 bonus damage to structures and increases by
+0.5 per attack upgrade.[/li]
[li]Decreased Spawner mineral cost from 120 to 100.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Beastling
[list]
[li]Now deals 60% damage to adjacent walls when attacking a
wall.[/li]
[li]Now deals up to +20% more damage to walls depending on their
missing health percentage.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Armory Researches
[list]
[li]Provided default hotkeys for researches.[/li]
[li]Penetrating Laser now also increases Reaper damage by
+1.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[/list]
[/quote]
Conyard
Great change. Allows more playstyles while imo not breaking the
game with level 30 walls that (pre 4.x) lead into zerg action
eco up 40 mins straight..
In good lobbies you can skip since it takes around 10 minutes to
pay off, so when the game is over if terrans play the game
correctly. in bad lobbies you can use it to more safely pull the
ion win.
Still there is the risk that even good players will rather go a
3 gas ion build which is bad gamedesign wise imo. we want the
majority of players pushing, do we?
Fortification
Great change. It only looks underwhelming atm because tanklings
are so broken lol. in normal games it would be fine.
Tankling
yikes. i dont really feel like deepdiving gamesituations where
the change impacts horrible.
I like the idea of giving zerg more builds but this is
overtuned.
Two possible solutions:
A) Reduce Bonusdamage to +6. That allows a single scv to outheal
one tankling. they can be massed too easy.
or
B) Lock "Bunkerbuster" Upgrade behind Armor 1 and 400 Minerals
to give terrans time to prepare.
Beastlings
I like the idea and the changes but so far it achieved nothing.
:D they are still useless due to absurd cost and techbarrier
Beside the tanklingbuff I like it more than I thought I would.
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