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#Post#: 1501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.4
By: Speed Date: January 3, 2021, 10:39 am
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I really like the buffed firebats, they're a nice front line for
a game ending push, which is a fine purpose for a unit I feel
like. From a design & balance point of view they're in a good
spots now, maybe a little bit too strong, but 30/40 is also a
big cost (I usually make them for the final push only as I feel
like before it's too much gas), so I think it's fair if they
have some good power. 10x upgraded firebat, which is what I used
to test them is 300/600, a pretty high investment imo, so it's
fair to expect some return.
I'm not sure if it needs balance adjusting, but if it turns out
that way I'd say -50 base HP or -25 base HP and -25 upgrade HP
should put it close(r) to balanced as their state prior to this
patch's buff was pretty trash (100/200 HP for the cost was just
way too bad, I never made that unit outside of practise mode).
Regarding tank, I feel like it has in theory a good purpose in
current patch, since some people seem to believe massing
infestors to transfuse big spines is the key to win as zerg,
it's just a bit hard to access them, the first tank will be
450/700 (450/100 unit cost and 600 gas for T3) instead of
reworking them into something entirely different that is likely
to be very under- or overwhelming I'd suggest making them more
accessible by reducing tech requirement to T2 (slightly
disliking this due to T2 already unlocking stuff like vets,
italis and firebats) or reducing their pretty high cost a bit.
In current meta you definetely cannot turtle forever, so I don't
feel like tank is much of an issue when it comes to that, but
for it's theoritcal offensive potential of sniping infestors /
chipping away at the zerg base it's a little too expensive right
now (more of a save gamer ender similar to using 1 ion to clear
high ground spines, which is nice, but the game is usually
decided before that happens).
Zerg on the other hand needs some help, too. Whether or not
zergs win largely depends on the terran's skill, zerg's skill
plays only a secondary part. Several people believe just making
mass infestors and transfusing spines is the best way to play,
but I feel like that stuff has similar issue that hydra has,
which is you need to invest ahead of time, for hydra it's 6min
ahead of time, for infestors it's like 2-3min ahead of time, so
infestors are a lot less problematic and due to spawner
mechanics have an additional value later on. Anyways, if all
terrans are skilled and push fast and micro against the big
spine well then I feel like no amount of infestor is holding
that. There was a proposed dmg buff to big spines, and yes, that
would help because if zerg manages to target the center of
marines in power field while transfusing terran will lose a ton
of DPS, but it's still a bad change in my opinion, because it
makes the worst-case for zerg playable, which is nice, but it
makes the bad- / worst-case scenario for terran even more
unplayable, assuming you're the only threatening terran on your
side the zerg will build most of the eco spawners on you, which
will make it harder to push, and obviously the infestors will
always be close to the big spines of your army, and in this
scenario it becomes very hard to do something as terran, less so
because of what zerg's did and more because the terran's are
lacking skill. So yeah, buffing big spines will help zerg
against skilled terran, but the scenario that they already win
will be won even harder, which is far from ideal.
Some stuff that could be worked on for zergs some of which has
been discussed a bit lately on discord:
-Minerals and supply are basically the same thing, since you pay
minerals for supply upgrades and then build spawners that have a
mineral and supply cost. This could be reworked to mineral only
so zerg eco is more continuous and slightly faster if macroed
well by the zerg. Current system is very dumbed down, you macro
every X minutes, this makes it hard for mechanically skilled
players to create a meaningful difference to a weaker player.
Terran eco is A LOT more complex and difficult, you will quickly
see differences between strong and weak terrans, as strong
terrans usually can build a better eco even while under
pressure, for zerg the difference is a lot smaller due to their
rather simple macro cycles.
-hydras are pretty useless to me and I haven't heard of zergs
that turn the game in their favour because of some hydra play.
The increased regeneration (that isn't in patch notes) helps a
lot, but 6 minutes to gain range, like before mentioned, is a
way too big investment that has to be done ahead of time. I only
make hydras if I face a bad reaper player, because I can get to
a point where 300 minerals isn't a big deal before those do any
dmg, however a good reaper player will take the outer area in
like 7minutes, which is at a point where I don't feel like I can
/ should invest 300 minerals into hydras, I rather rebuild my
stuff, even though it really sucks to rebuild 2 spires at 7:30.
Hydras could be buffed to be useful, I'd like that because
hydras have a lot more value if the zerg can actually pay
attention to them, so a good zerg will gain significantly more
value than a bad zerg. I mentioned this in some other post,
hydras will probably have to be limited in numbers, due to how
zerg eco allows very little "side-steps" early on and is kinda
unlimited later on. Since hydras aren't needed to break turtles
anymore I don't see any issue with this though.
-Firelings... Spectre is still questioning why they have been
removed in the first place, and I never actively played a
version of zerg hex with firelings so I don't really have good
knowledge about them, however I know they were available right
away and you could actually stop pushes if used smartly - to me
it seems this is kinda something zerg is really lacking, a unit
that is immediately ready to answer a threat, unlike infestor
and hydra. Might be worth to re-implement these? Perhaps with
some rebalancing or whatever their issue was.
Also, please fix the middle terran x) It's seriously unfunny to
get F2d right away, you will lose stuff no matter what and the
punish for the zerg is extremely minor, since leaving terrans
alone that early on doesn't really change anything (some terrans
will not even take 3 gas with all units being on middle). It
actually is really unfunny to get F2d as side terran, too.
Ideally zerg would have more of an equal fighting chance mid
game and less "cheesy" tricks like F2 early on.
^^ tl;dr some feedback on current patch, what's currently fine
and what should be worked on.
#Post#: 1503--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.4
By: RickSanchez Date: January 4, 2021, 5:04 am
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[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=145.msg1501#msg1501
date=1609691969][...] some people seem to believe massing
infestors to transfuse big spines is the key to win as
zerg[...][/quote]
some people? ^^ you obviously mean me. in normal random lobbies
your barely see zergs getting infestors in time. :D Infestors
are fine atm. it is something to express skill as zerg since
there are many opportunities to make it fail like: getting too
few infestors or get them to late (you will run out of
transfuses), position them poorly, or overbuild around spines in
direction of ramp so infestors can poorly rotate or just be
unaware. 50 vets kill bigspine in no time and you need to be on
point.
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=145.msg1501#msg1501
date=1609691969][...]-Minerals and supply are basically the same
thing, since you pay minerals for supply upgrades and then build
spawners that have a mineral and supply cost. This could be
reworked to mineral only so zerg eco is more continuous and
slightly faster if macroed well by the zerg.[...][/quote] i am
against that since it would lead into eco forever. these cycles
give you time to manage other stuff like rallies, micro, strikes
or whatnot.. maybe defending with infestors. if terrans would
occupy you, you would be instantly behind, since without supply
literally the only thing you do is place more ecolings and spire
foreeeever. no plz not. it is good as it is. stop trying to fix
stuff that isnt broken and works perfectly fine.
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=145.msg1501#msg1501
date=1609691969][...]Firelings...[...][/quote]
yes. and burrow too not the lame latest version of them. imagine
to burry down like 50 firelings near a bigspine. terran comes to
push. chop chop nom nom ;D
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=145.msg1501#msg1501
date=1609691969][...]Also, please fix the middle terran
x)[...][/quote]
yes
#Post#: 1504--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.4
By: Speed Date: January 4, 2021, 7:26 am
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I just don't think rapid fire transfusing (which is a very fancy
way to say "hold down a button") is that great of a way to
express skill. Personally I feel like I'm just camping my stuff
while building economy and when I'm attacked I defend by holding
down a button. I'd prefer some stuff that actually takes some
more different actions to be effective. I even tried building
nests to have some clouds to slow terran from closing the
distance to big spines, but that's the same stuff as making
infestors.
At the end of the day zerg just has design issues, little to no
flexibility and very low skill cap, while terran has lots of
flexibility and a super high skill cap. You can tweak the
numbers on zerg side all you want, buffing stuff like primals /
ultras / brutas is gonna help zerg win rate, but it won't help
zerg gameplay, if that makes sense to you. Zerg really lacks
stuff to meaningfully micro in mid game, early game you can
micro some lings and strikes, but ling micro will be over once
terran has walls (which most people rush, which is kinda bad for
their eco, but who cares) and strike micro is pretty over once
terran gets shattering laser (which most people get too fast as
well, imo). At that point of the game zerg is just a semi-AFK
macro machine that hopes it can stay alive for long enough to
tech up and build some units that can actually do something
(most commonly roachs, ravators and infused roaches) against
terrans. I do enjoy playing zerg, even if the majority of the
gameplay consists of very simple macro, holding down a button
and hope to live, and F2 + a-clicking terrans and hope they die.
It's not that easy to change this, but it's not impossible
either. (Making macro more difficult & rewarding is probably the
easiest and is a good idea to start with, even if the options to
use that money are a bit underwhelming).
#Post#: 1511--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.4
By: Speed Date: January 5, 2021, 7:36 am
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Tanks are crazy by the way. Someone requested me doing a tank
push for the memes, managed to build one at like min 17. to
pressure the first spine you hardly have to go past my standard
armory position, eco zerg with mass infestor can't do anything
to push you off of that (you can easily supply your army with
battery patrol, no need for the inefficient lab transfer). You
can even reach the hive from a decently save position^^
Scratch my suggestion about making tank more accessible, it
might seem funny as it used to be a turtle tool, but after the
game I played I'm sure it's good to push with this patch, given
the situation lol.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ssqjNdxuD_lef3Jo3JcrQzjg2ZqUU1An/view?usp=sharing<br
/>(replay)
Side note; Banklings are super imbalanced. Great way to make
sure terrans win lmao. (I have a fun replay of that, too,
yesterday I played some... interesting games).
#Post#: 2293--------------------------------------------------
Re: Patch Notes 4.4
By: bossypalladin Date: December 17, 2021, 7:13 am
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[quote author=WMaster link=topic=145.msg1409#msg1409
date=1608470583]
[list][li]Fixed Torralisk dealing double damage to primary
target.[/li][/list]
[/quote]
This isn't a fix. Torra is supposed to do double damage. You
just made it easy af for terrans to turtle.
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