DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Zerg Hex Forum
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Balance Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 1397--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: deorai037 Date: December 18, 2020, 8:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm also surprised no one else here in this thread other than
Hecari (and me in a previous thread) has noted that the doubled
armor gain has not been mentioned in this proposed patch. You
would think that, with all of the screaming about "this will be
the return of bunker ion 6 terran every game omg" that someone
would at least mention how powerful the armor gain is for
turtling. It's remarkably annoying to try and break walls in the
mid-late game (obviously not ultra late) if Terrans turtle up,
as with anything that's not bane/infused/bruta/torra just
tickles upgraded walls.
As for the rest of the proposed changes...
Overall, I appreciate your willingness to experiment around and
I can see you want to try a lot of interesting new things,
WMaster.
Beastling
I think that toying with Beastling is overall a good idea,
although the exact effects of it we'd have to see in practice.
Tankling
For the proposed tankling change, flat bonus damage to walls
seems a little bit redundant if Beastlings are also going to be
dealing extra damage to walls. I like the suggestion to reduce
their cost although I'm not sure if it fixes their core issue of
dragging down partner eco
Construction Yard
I think the proposed con yard change is interesting, but it
won't quite have the desired effect of fully rewarding players
who expand out onto low ground early because 1-gas turtling is
often preferred over no-gas turtling, even by newer players, so
they'll still end up turtling for the most part.
Siege Tank
I think that the siege tank changes aren't necessarily going to
increase usage of siege tanks in-game.
The main reasons I can think of for why people aren't building
very many siege tanks in the first place are its high spot in
the tech tree, high cost and the presence of a generally
stronger alternative, the Italis. The Italis does excellent
sustained damage from a fairly long range and is also more
mobile, making the Italis a superior option for everything the
siege tank does except in rare cases such as an ultra-late game
siege (where you need the sheer range of siege tanks to clear
out spore cannons).
Increasing the cost of a siege tank overall - that is to say,
more minerals needed to upgrade it into a powerhouse, more
energy burned at once - is likely to push it into an even more
niche usage; if I'm already far enough out that I can hit large
spines with a super siege tank, then I'm probably doing well
enough that I'm probably transitioning to vets/elites anyways.
If I'm far enough back that I can't do that, then I'm probably
going to spend that energy on just ion or italis.
Making the current siege tanks available for cheaper, or
otherwise buffing existing siege tanks, might be a better place
to start before reworking them entirely. I think small changes
could make them more viable.
Hydralisk
Hydralisk changes are interesting, but I think they also leave
Zerg a bit too vulnerable in the late/ultra-late game, where
hydras are essential for defense against large elite pushes
(which admittedly don't happen to often but nonetheless).
Infestors
I think infestor changes are interesting, we'd have to see how
they play out.
Big Spine Change
I think that combined with changes to transfuse that this might
be enough to bring t1s down to earth in terms of strength. I
think Speed's claim that this change would be useless vs t1s is
not fully justified; it's one thing to push a big spine under no
pressure and all of the room in the world to micro around it,
it's another to have to push into a big spine while attention is
being swapped over to you (and which will likely require the use
of a power field, which constrains the space you have to micro
anyways).
Baneling Rework
Interesting. All I've got to say about that.
Firebat Buff
I think that's a good place to start as far as making firebats
at least viable in a niche role. 100 hp without upgrades was way
too low, so at the very least an adjustment to 200 hp should
make them more attractive to use.
Other
I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Shock Troopers, Firebats,
and Reapers need to necessarily benefit from upgrades, but I
could be sold on the idea.
New Zerg Base
No comment.
On Armor, again
Just wanted to reiterate Hecari's point about armor, the newly
doubled armor upgrades seem a bit wonky.
Conclusions
Overall I like the spirit but not necessarily the actual tweaks
of this proposed patch. I also was writing up a longer piece
about design philosophy of units, but I think I will move that
to a separate thread.
#Post#: 1401--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Speed Date: December 19, 2020, 4:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, +2 armor is really strong in midgame, fairly useless late
game.
What surprises me is, wall base armor got buffed from 1 to 2,
which is huge, but when I repair wall with 1 scv 2 slowlings
deal damage similar to what is repaired, but aVehicle told me
that an scv can repair vs. 2 slowling + 1 creeper, in old
(1armor) patch... aVehicle is pro bunker player, so I'm sure he
is correct when he says that, but why is stronger wall not
getting repaired up when only 2 slowling hit it... maybe 3 of
them hit it, but even then...
Anyway, I agree with hecari and deorai that +2 armor instead of
+1 is not really that great. Perhaps rather increase HP from
+25% to +30%.
#Post#: 1421--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 20, 2020, 9:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
with this new patch I am forced to reconsider my stance on
returning dmg reduction to defenders...
it was fine then but now with torras being... well... worse... a
lot...
it may be (way) too much
tbh even now without it torras feel quite underwhelming, I would
honsetly not mind at least partial return of their old "buged"
dmg as it felt more right - for context had game when 24 dmg up
torras strugled to break 9 wall up bunker... really sad view...
for those who want to see for themselves - time 5h 55min and
40-ish seconds
HTML https://www.twitch.tv/videos/844341613
yes, there was a bit of missmicro when only 1 torra was
attacking bc of infused being in the way but even after infuseds
were pulled away it took 2 torras multiple hits to kill walls
15!!!!!!!!!!!!! upgrades below them...
that cant be right
#Post#: 1443--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: RickSanchez Date: December 23, 2020, 4:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=WMaster link=topic=138.msg1306#msg1306
date=1608122815][...]
Gas Production
Being able to build several Chemical Plants safely on the high
ground might have been too much. But I do think that investing
for later stages in the game can be a fun strategy. If Zerg is
able to put pressure to bunkers, then there is a way to attach
risks to it.
My idea is to allow the Construction Yard to generate gas when
it is built outside the main base. Since you can only build one,
there is not so much room for exponential growth. It should
first be researched at and has 3 levels. As an added feature,
the Construction Yard will only produce at full capacity when it
has been built for some amount of time. Initially I would try
about 5 minutes. This means when you lose the Construction Yard,
you’ll first have to find a way to build it outside the main
base again, and you’ll have reduced income for the first several
minutes after that. This might make the risk and reward a bit
more balanced.
As for actual values. I thought one Chemical Plant’s worth of
production to be its maximum. Producing as much as one to three
Refineries depending on level. And whether it’s upgraded
depending on the construction time, so that’s a +100% increase
after set amount of time. For the cost of researches, I was
thinking 150/250/350 gas, putting the total gas cost little over
what was required for the first Chemical Plant while allowing
for more efficient versions with partial investments.
[...]
Summary
[list]
[li]Construction Yard
[list]
[li]Add research to produce gas. Cost 150/250/350 for 1/2/3 gas
per 3 sec.[/li]
[li]Make gas production only possible when build outside the
main base.[/li]
[li]Add passive ability to generate double the gas income after
5 minutes of construction.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[/list]
[/quote]
Mett did some excel work
HTML https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/691982749963255879/791424058704789534/unknown.png
Assuming you have 4 upgrades gasses and first gas extraction
upgrade finished (counted in) it takes about 9 minute to pay off
kinda long time. not sure if worth
#Post#: 1447--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Buggo Date: December 24, 2020, 4:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Great Change!!!
I hate to say if a game is unbalanced or not since it's about
the skill mostly, but Zerg is truly underpowered.
Can't even beat 3 decent Terran now which is sad, nerfed roach
against buffed marine is just meh. Feeling very strong as
Terran, 1v1 Zerg is pretty doable. There should be speed 4 and
speed 5 upg.
Two things, please consider. The easiest way to buff zerg is to
increase movement. Fast zerg can make the whole game,
exceptionally challenging which would be very fun. I do like
terran became very aggressive which made the game more exciting.
If possible, please add some upgs on zerg movement. Mass ling
ban and the marine split would be the highlight of the game.
#Post#: 1449--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Mett Gaming Date: December 24, 2020, 6:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
update on Ricks post:
I've since added a graph and comments to the file.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/18Y68-uCKywAjrgJguSCztIhKGSTwPc-T/view?usp=sharing
feel free do download and play around with it yourself. Couple
of things must be added manually however most is automatically
calculated.
HTML https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691982749963255879/791645247280381962/yard_graph.png
edit: Graph shows the Gas production after 6mins assuming that's
the time you finished both yard and first upgrade while having
established 4 upgraded refineries.
#Post#: 1450--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Speed Date: December 24, 2020, 8:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Buggo link=topic=138.msg1447#msg1447
date=1608805702]
There should be speed 4 and speed 5 upg.
[/quote]
While this post is a troll, and speed 4 and 5 is definetely not
something I want to see, it does kinda touch a point that has
been annoying me for a bit. Marines move at 3.5 speed, most zerg
units (most noteably slowlings, ultras and brutas) move at 2.0,
can be increased to 3.2 with speed 3. So it's still slower than
marines off creep, so terran can simply run away from most
situations, however roaches (and primals) have 2.25 speed, 3.7
(3.6 actually) with speed 3. So roaches are superior in speed
compared to higher tier units and more importantly marines. Just
one of many designflaws in my opinion. Brutalisk weapon point is
an insult btw, ever since 3.x firebat is out I totally hate that
trash unit, too much supply, too much tech, too slow, too much
attack animation, I rather make mass roach + infused, which has
its own issues, but is generally more flexible and punishing for
the terrans.
#Post#: 1451--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Oayoo Date: December 24, 2020, 9:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Brutalisks are just a garbage unit sadly x)
#Post#: 1455--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Ecanos Date: December 24, 2020, 1:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Oayoo link=topic=138.msg1451#msg1451
date=1608823939]
Brutalisks are just a garbage unit sadly x)
[/quote]
what is not garbage for you???
i think the only good unit is Strikling Creeper (Roach Rush)
Infestor (hydra) for you
#Post#: 1460--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: blah Date: December 26, 2020, 9:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1389#msg1389
date=1608323692]
@WMaster this is the main issue with the game, this is what you
need to fix before you add crazy super duper OP units that will
create a host of new problems:
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com/balance-discussion/zerg-hex-marine-vs-zerg-efficiency-spreadsheet/
As Hecari clearly says:
[quote author=Hecari link=topic=143.msg1363#msg1363
date=1608250343]
[list]
[li]Tar-upgraded Roaches outperform regular Primals against
elite marines, and conditionally against veterans.[/li]
[li]Tar-upgraded Roaches outperform even Ultras against fully
upgraded elite marines.[/li]
[li]Tar-upgraded Roaches double-dip on overkill damage, which is
not reflected in this calculator. They are likely much stronger
their estimated efficiency, which is already considerable.[/li]
[/list]
[/quote]
Fix this. Armor 2 units should not be better than Armor 3 and
Armor 4 units. Fix this, and then you can consider adding crazy
nonsense to the game.
[/quote]
Agreed. I say ditch the 5 tier upgrades for zerg. model terran
with 2.
but none of this matters if they don't fix the servers.
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page