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#Post#: 1386--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Speed Date: December 18, 2020, 2:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I disagree here with Oayoo actually and side with zergtriumph
and ricksanchez.
The proposed changes miss the main issues of the current patch
for the most part. (in my opinion)
Instead we get a bunch of additions that (in my opinion) weren't
asked for, which may or may not break the game, but will most
certainly not fix the issues.
I've made 2 lengthy posts in this thread about my thoughts
already, so I'm gonna cut it here.
#Post#: 1387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: RickSanchez Date: December 18, 2020, 2:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1385#msg1385
date=1608322231]
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=138.msg1384#msg1384
date=1608321885]
[quote author=Oayoo link=topic=138.msg1383#msg1383
date=1608321648]
It's fine ZergTriumph, if you look at the patch, you can already
tell how games will be.
Some players will try to abuse the new yard and will loose their
time doing eco for the tank.
If the tank is op, they will free win. If the tank is meh, they
will die.
The others will just play like the current patch and still be
able to win most games by themselves^^
The defenders are not buff so most likely good terrans will fast
understand that opening yard outside is too dangerous.
In the end, the meta will only change depending on the Tank.
We have little data about the Tank so we can't say right now.
[/quote]
nono if you are free you can do nice eco game now for 25 minutes
and watch your mates die. i love the diversity of trolling. and
if i get the early beating since capacity didnt touch i can
still leave early since panelty didnt touch at all. why would
you care about the main issues if you can just roll back to the
good old turtlemeta 3.x times
i am tired argueing with creatures like adam who clearly wants
just easy abuse solowin. that's why he defended chemplant till
the last bullet. whatever.. again tired. great patch new meta
leave or cow eco :D
[/quote]
and this is Wmaster why I am saying u should change very early
penalty...
thank u ink, could not ask for better example
[/quote]
it wont matter since i wont play a game where guys like you eco
up forever doing nothing. bullshit. when you want towerdefense
so hard why tf you dont play towerdefense? back to 3.x times i
guess we troll each other every match since you do zero
aggression when free and abuse your team because it is necessary
to bm zerg and allies as hard as possible by getting 1k eco
before aending with elite like 40 minutes in. great changes...
whatever riphex or maybe i join the abuseteam too idk
reminder your fav build in 3.x was to open 3 gas and eco up as
long as possible without getting any units to get early
chemplant at 12min from that point you just hoarded them to get
level 30 walls and ioned.. usually that took an hour. what an
exciting strategy. you only need team to be zergs punching ball
so you can eco up forever. that is abuse of your team in a
teamgame. but i told you dozens of times you still think that it
is absolutly valid so... pointless.. fact is you just want
solowin and bm everyone. or why do you reset your stats after
every lose?
**** pushing we just wank our dks behind the walls, build more
cows, get more upgrades and watch the guy that gets massed from
start die. great gameplay
#Post#: 1388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Speed Date: December 18, 2020, 2:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1385#msg1385
date=1608322231]
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=138.msg1384#msg1384
date=1608321885]
nono if you are free you can do nice eco game now for 25 minutes
and watch your mates die. i love the diversity of trolling. and
if i get the early beating since capacity didnt touch i can
still leave early since panelty didnt touch at all. why would
you care about the main issues if you can just roll back to the
good old turtlemeta 3.x times
[/quote]
and this is Wmaster why I am saying u should change very early
penalty...
thank u ink, could not ask for better example
[/quote]
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1338#msg1338
date=1608167944]
ok I dont want to argue with u anymore... feel free to belive
so... I will always take 1 more zerg being free roll in players
pool... just pls dont go zerg with me, now that killing hive is
no longer possible it takes way to long for my liking to kill
all my nests and big spines before leaving
[/quote]
x)
No comment, just wave and smile boys.
#Post#: 1389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 18, 2020, 2:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
@WMaster this is the main issue with the game, this is what you
need to fix before you add crazy super duper OP units that will
create a host of new problems:
HTML https://zerghex.createaforum.com/balance-discussion/zerg-hex-marine-vs-zerg-efficiency-spreadsheet/
As Hecari clearly says:
[quote author=Hecari link=topic=143.msg1363#msg1363
date=1608250343]
[list]
[li]Tar-upgraded Roaches outperform regular Primals against
elite marines, and conditionally against veterans.[/li]
[li]Tar-upgraded Roaches outperform even Ultras against fully
upgraded elite marines.[/li]
[li]Tar-upgraded Roaches double-dip on overkill damage, which is
not reflected in this calculator. They are likely much stronger
their estimated efficiency, which is already considerable.[/li]
[/list]
[/quote]
Fix this. Armor 2 units should not be better than Armor 3 and
Armor 4 units. Fix this, and then you can consider adding crazy
nonsense to the game.
#Post#: 1390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 18, 2020, 3:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=138.msg1388#msg1388
date=1608322830]
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1385#msg1385
date=1608322231]
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=138.msg1384#msg1384
date=1608321885]
nono if you are free you can do nice eco game now for 25 minutes
and watch your mates die. i love the diversity of trolling. and
if i get the early beating since capacity didnt touch i can
still leave early since panelty didnt touch at all. why would
you care about the main issues if you can just roll back to the
good old turtlemeta 3.x times
[/quote]
and this is Wmaster why I am saying u should change very early
penalty...
thank u ink, could not ask for better example
[/quote]
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1338#msg1338
date=1608167944]
ok I dont want to argue with u anymore... feel free to belive
so... I will always take 1 more zerg being free roll in players
pool... just pls dont go zerg with me, now that killing hive is
no longer possible it takes way to long for my liking to kill
all my nests and big spines before leaving
[/quote]
x)
No comment, just wave and smile boys.
[/quote]
when ur ally is losing game for u as zerg it doesnt matter if u
kill all ur stuff and leave, game is lost anyway and I suppose I
only do what I do so they dont think "och I get solo zerg now so
cleary what I am doing is good for me"
when terran leave before 2:15 he doesnt punish his team but zerg
for playing in a way that is inconvinient to the terran which is
bs as the sole reason of plaver VERSUS player is to beat the
other side, if u are in bad spot then other side is doing
something right and should be not punished for it
#Post#: 1391--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Oayoo Date: December 18, 2020, 3:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you guys, but i can't find the strength to argue
more.
You guys are kinda new here so you don't know but it's been a
long time Wmaster just add useless/nonsense stuff into this
game^^
And you can be sure that i love new stuff^^
But, why do you want to give Terrans a new bunker build (tank
upgrade + yard) when you already have a bunker build which is
called "ION CANON" ...
It is the same for the Torralisk/Omegalisk. Check this logic:
Oh, it looks like the Omegalisk isn't able to kill bunker
Terrans ====> Let's create a new unit that will do the same job
better. WHY ??? Just balance the Omega...
For fun, here is the list of all the nonsense i remember:
-50 lvl wall upgrades (when you could have an unbeatable bunker,
pre patch 2.0. Omegalisk was created because of that lol)
-Italis (they were overpowered before and could easily kill
Omegalisk which lead to unbeatable bunker, patch 2. some number)
-defenders when they were overpowered (they are fine now)
-Firebats (patch 3.0)
-chem plant (patch 3.0)
-beastlings (make something new out of this garbage unit please)
-roaches upgrades (these upgrades are catastrophic)
-Torralisks or omegalisk (one of them should just be removed)
-geyser blocked when Terran is dead (just wtf ??? why ???)
-firelings removal (there was a nice build with firelings, rip
diversity i guess)
-spore (just useless)
Too lazy to remember more
#Post#: 1392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 18, 2020, 3:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=138.msg1387#msg1387
date=1608322514]
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1385#msg1385
date=1608322231]
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=138.msg1384#msg1384
date=1608321885]
[quote author=Oayoo link=topic=138.msg1383#msg1383
date=1608321648]
It's fine ZergTriumph, if you look at the patch, you can already
tell how games will be.
Some players will try to abuse the new yard and will loose their
time doing eco for the tank.
If the tank is op, they will free win. If the tank is meh, they
will die.
The others will just play like the current patch and still be
able to win most games by themselves^^
The defenders are not buff so most likely good terrans will fast
understand that opening yard outside is too dangerous.
In the end, the meta will only change depending on the Tank.
We have little data about the Tank so we can't say right now.
[/quote]
nono if you are free you can do nice eco game now for 25 minutes
and watch your mates die. i love the diversity of trolling. and
if i get the early beating since capacity didnt touch i can
still leave early since panelty didnt touch at all. why would
you care about the main issues if you can just roll back to the
good old turtlemeta 3.x times
i am tired argueing with creatures like adam who clearly wants
just easy abuse solowin. that's why he defended chemplant till
the last bullet. whatever.. again tired. great patch new meta
leave or cow eco :D
[/quote]
and this is Wmaster why I am saying u should change very early
penalty...
thank u ink, could not ask for better example
[/quote]
it wont matter since i wont play a game where guys like you eco
up forever doing nothing. bullshit. when you want towerdefense
so hard why tf you dont play towerdefense? back to 3.x times i
guess we troll each other every match since you do zero
aggression when free and abuse your team because it is necessary
to bm zerg and allies as hard as possible by getting 1k eco
before aending with elite like 40 minutes in. great changes...
whatever riphex or maybe i join the abuseteam too idk
reminder your fav build in 3.x was to open 3 gas and eco up as
long as possible without getting any units to get early
chemplant at 12min from that point you just hoarded them to get
level 30 walls and ioned.. usually that took an hour. what an
exciting strategy. you only need team to be zergs punching ball
so you can eco up forever. that is abuse of your team in a
teamgame. but i told you dozens of times you still think that it
is absolutly valid so... pointless.. fact is you just want
solowin and bm everyone. or why do you reset your stats after
every lose?
**** pushing we just wank our dks behind the walls, build more
cows, get more upgrades and watch the guy that gets massed from
start die. great gameplay
[/quote]
another bs from the fairy tale
if I was left alone with literaly 0 units and got chem on 12
then I didnt not turtle but kill zerg before 18
#Post#: 1393--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: RickSanchez Date: December 18, 2020, 3:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1390#msg1390
date=1608325386][...]if u are in bad spot then other side is
doing something right and should be not punished for
it[...][/quote]
yea skillplayers like you that abuse anything possible found the
"upgrade spawner button". such a skill. everyone (but you) says
it is op and terran cant do anything against that. zerg did
everything right. why go eco to have better chance for high tech
when terrans start pushing if you can deny everything in first
minute. totally deserved. ofc i leave when my mates struggle to
get 2 gas when i open 3 gas and get all the zergs.
and this is the point. YOU think it is ok from zerg and terran
should play the game. you would do and that's why you miss
chemplant so you cant solowin while bm zerg anymore that easy
with 20 apm playstyle.
again. looking forward to the patch. i honestly do yard first
every game and bm zerg as much as possible. 1 gas yard play.
will be great. and when team complains i mute chat.
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1392#msg1392
date=1608325488]another bs from the fairy tale
if I was left alone with literaly 0 units and got chem on 12
then I didnt not turtle but kill zerg before 18
[/quote]
want me to link some videos?
metts famous 3.x quote: "Adam doing adam things" when you hoard
your 4th chemplant
#Post#: 1394--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 18, 2020, 3:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=138.msg1393#msg1393
date=1608325836]
want me to link some videos?
metts famous 3.x quote: "Adam doing adam things" when you hoard
your 4th chemplant
[/quote]
yes in hundreds of games I played(or thousands even it is now)
u will find some where I indeed did not feel like playing
aggressively for 400 time and wanted to do something else... I
am guilty, pls come and hang me, such a crime, not wanting to do
1 thing over and over again...
I find it honsetly sad that u and few other here would not even
find sarcasm in this sentence and honsetly belive that game
should always look the same
sometimes I pushed sometimes I didnt, sometimes I pulled some
weird s***... at least I never let my team down and always tried
my best to actualy win a game even with weirdest of builds
sometimes... not like some here that love going "och no I lost 1
rin need to leave I suppose"
#Post#: 1395--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Hecari Date: December 18, 2020, 4:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I would like to discuss my thoughts on the current defensive
wall situation, regarding wall upgrades and defenders.
In the last patch, wall upgrades were buffed to provide +2 armor
per level in order to compensate for the removal of Defender
Link's damage reduction and general reduction of Terran gas
income. However, I dislike this particular method of balancing
walls, because it creates a very strange "All Or Nothing"
situation: Zerg units either do damage to walls or they do not.
For example, Slowlings deal 5 base damage, so with just one wall
upgrade, walls become essentially impervious towards Slowling
damage due to the subtractive nature of Armor. Exacerbating this
issue, it is generally a trap to buy more than a few Attack
upgrades until lategame as Zerg, as you only need enough to kill
Marines within contact time and it does not contribute to your
income. Even if Zerg buys five Attack upgrades, Terran needs
only four total Wall upgrades to become invulnerable again. This
change also causes early to mid game walling off to be actually
buffed compared to before because though construction yard walls
are slightly weaker, non construction yard walls are massively
tankier if one invests into wall upgrades in any capacity.
However, come late game, harder-hitting units such as Brutalisks
and above will essentially ignore Wall armor upgrades and
pulverize all non-construction yard walls regardless of how many
Wall upgrades you have, again due to how Armor is subtractive.
There is little point to buying more than around five wall
upgrades unless you are hard turtling because regardless of how
many upgrades you have, they are not going to defend against
massive hits of 100+ damage.
What I'm trying to get at here, is that Armor is a rather shaky
mechanic to balance around due to how inherently volatile it is.
I would rather see the power budget shifted away from doubling
armor gain and towards other aspects of walls, such as perhaps
increasing wall HP gained from each upgrade instead. This would
allow Zerg units to stay relevant for longer, Ravator's armor
debuff to be impactful again, and incentivize active defense
from Terran in the form of repairers such as SCVs and Defenders,
creating room for counterplay in the form of sniping them off.
Edit: As a side note, Torralisks actually hit twice. Is this
intended?
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