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#Post#: 1332--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 16, 2020, 5:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think Speed pointed out the main issue you are overlooking:
mass roach is still the best zerg strategy in 90% of games.
Mass roach is nearly always better than primals or ultras, which
are still useless. Brutas are still useful for countering vets
and breaking down walls, but it's almost always better to mass a
lot of roaches first. So the lack of strategic variety is on
the zerg side. As others have said, instead of worrying about
pointless early units like tankling and beastling, give zerg
something to do in the midgame other than make more roaches than
the terrans can handle. You are focused too much on the early
game and ignoring the fact that nearly every game boils down to
a contest between mass roach and vets.
T1 marine push really isn't an issue anymore for big spines.
Almost every terran is getting vets before they attack big
spines, because it's more efficient to convert to vets first and
that way not lose any (or very few) marines to the big spine.
So the game will continue to become more "one dimensional" with
your proposed patch. Terran will rush vets and zerg will mass
roach.
I also think you've listened to the crowd (which used to include
me) too much about ion not being viable. Having tried it
several games and seen others try it, ion is definitely still
very viable in this patch. You see it so rarely because most
players just assume it isn't feasible, but it is definitely
possible for a terran to get off 3-4 ions before the zerg can
push them up to the high ground. Which means if multiple
terrans go for ion, it is a viable strategy. So please don't
strengthen terran bunker. It is fine just the way it is, and as
time goes on, more players will figure this out.
#Post#: 1333--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 16, 2020, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1332#msg1332
date=1608160380]
I think Speed pointed out the main issue you are overlooking:
mass roach is still the best zerg strategy in 90% of games.
Mass roach is nearly always better than primals or ultras, which
are still useless. Brutas are still useful for countering vets
and breaking down walls, but it's almost always better to mass a
lot of roaches first. So the lack of strategic variety is on
the zerg side. As others have said, instead of worrying about
pointless early units like tankling and beastling, give zerg
something to do in the midgame other than make more roaches than
the terrans can handle.
T1 marine push really isn't an issue anymore for big spines.
Almost every terran is getting vets before they attack big
spines, because it's more efficient to convert to vets first and
that way not lose any (or very few) marines to the big spine.
So the game will continue to become more "one dimensional" with
your proposed patch. Terran will rush vets and zerg will mass
roach.
I also think you've listened to the crowd (which used to include
me) too much about ion not being viable. Having tried it
several games and seen others try it, ion is definitely still
very viable in this patch. You see it so rarely because most
players just assume it isn't feasible, but it is definitely
possible for a terran to get off 3-4 ions before the zerg can
push them up to the high ground. Which means if multiple
terrans go for ion, it is a viable strategy. So please don't
strengthen terran bunker. It is fine just the way it is, and as
time goes on, more players will figure this out.
[/quote]
sorry but all of this is simply not true...
roach is garbage unit now (I wanted speed to come and prove
otherwise- he didnt want to)
t1 pushes still happen (just saw najdorf pushing with t1 against
ultra few days ago) and when I myself did skip t1 at the start
of the patch now I am back to push with t1 first as it gave zerg
too much freedom to zerg to just skip them
didnt lose single game to ion since patch, either terrans knew
how to autocast rins faster than festors could get energy to
heal big spines and they just won, or they didnt in which case
infused,bruta, torra pick one rolled over all before even 1 hive
could be ioned down
but I agree that with party of 4 we messed around with 1
gas/inbase ion rush 1 day for memes and it somehow worked even
despite us messing around... but again it was party of 4 good
terrans almost everything works then
#Post#: 1334--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: AAAAPPPPP Date: December 16, 2020, 5:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1332#msg1332
date=1608160380]
I think Speed pointed out the main issue you are overlooking:
mass roach is still the best zerg strategy in 90% of games.
Mass roach is nearly always better than primals or ultras, which
are still useless. Brutas are still useful for countering vets
and breaking down walls, but it's almost always better to mass a
lot of roaches first. So the lack of strategic variety is on
the zerg side. As others have said, instead of worrying about
pointless early units like tankling and beastling, give zerg
something to do in the midgame other than make more roaches than
the terrans can handle.
T1 marine push really isn't an issue anymore for big spines.
Almost every terran is getting vets before they attack big
spines, because it's more efficient to convert to vets first and
that way not lose any (or very few) marines to the big spine.
So the game will continue to become more "one dimensional" with
your proposed patch. Terran will rush vets and zerg will mass
roach.
I also think you've listened to the crowd (which used to include
me) too much about ion not being viable. Having tried it
several games and seen others try it, ion is definitely still
very viable in this patch. You see it so rarely because most
players just assume it isn't feasible, but it is definitely
possible for a terran to get off 3-4 ions before the zerg can
push them up to the high ground. Which means if multiple
terrans go for ion, it is a viable strategy. So please don't
strengthen terran bunker. It is fine just the way it is, and as
time goes on, more players will figure this out.
[/quote]
Have you played this patch? Roaches are absolute trash now
against T1 and T2 marines with shatter, primals are if anything
the more winnable strategy between the two because they drain so
much energy
#Post#: 1335--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 16, 2020, 6:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1333#msg1333
date=1608160747]
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1332#msg1332
date=1608160380]
I think Speed pointed out the main issue you are overlooking:
mass roach is still the best zerg strategy in 90% of games.
Mass roach is nearly always better than primals or ultras, which
are still useless. Brutas are still useful for countering vets
and breaking down walls, but it's almost always better to mass a
lot of roaches first. So the lack of strategic variety is on
the zerg side. As others have said, instead of worrying about
pointless early units like tankling and beastling, give zerg
something to do in the midgame other than make more roaches than
the terrans can handle.
T1 marine push really isn't an issue anymore for big spines.
Almost every terran is getting vets before they attack big
spines, because it's more efficient to convert to vets first and
that way not lose any (or very few) marines to the big spine.
So the game will continue to become more "one dimensional" with
your proposed patch. Terran will rush vets and zerg will mass
roach.
I also think you've listened to the crowd (which used to include
me) too much about ion not being viable. Having tried it
several games and seen others try it, ion is definitely still
very viable in this patch. You see it so rarely because most
players just assume it isn't feasible, but it is definitely
possible for a terran to get off 3-4 ions before the zerg can
push them up to the high ground. Which means if multiple
terrans go for ion, it is a viable strategy. So please don't
strengthen terran bunker. It is fine just the way it is, and as
time goes on, more players will figure this out.
[/quote]
sorry but all of this is simply not true...
roach is garbage unit now (I wanted speed to come and prove
otherwise- he didnt want to)
t1 pushes still happen (just saw najdorf pushing with t1 against
ultra few days ago) and when I myself did skip t1 at the start
of the patch now I am back to push with t1 first as it gave zerg
too much freedom to zerg to just skip them
didnt lose single game to ion since patch, either terrans knew
how to autocast rins faster than festors could get energy to
heal big spines and they just won, or they didnt in which case
infused,bruta, torra pick one rolled over all before even 1 hive
could be ioned down
but I agree that with party of 4 we messed around with 1
gas/inbase ion rush 1 day for memes and it somehow worked even
despite us messing around... but again it was party of 4 good
terrans almost everything works then
[/quote]
Najdorf can make anything work. Come on man.
Almost every game I've seen zerg win, it is with mass
roach/ravator/infused. Primals get rekt by vets. Roaches win
because they are cheaper and easier to overwhelm the terran
with.
I didn't say terran is skipping T1 marines. I said terran is
attacking big spines with vets. Almost every game, terran makes
20-30 T1 marines, clears everything in front of big spines,
upgrades to vets, and then attacks big spines.
Ion isn't popular now but it does work, as you just admitted.
#Post#: 1336--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 16, 2020, 6:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1335#msg1335
date=1608165705]
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1333#msg1333
date=1608160747]
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1332#msg1332
date=1608160380]
I think Speed pointed out the main issue you are overlooking:
mass roach is still the best zerg strategy in 90% of games.
Mass roach is nearly always better than primals or ultras, which
are still useless. Brutas are still useful for countering vets
and breaking down walls, but it's almost always better to mass a
lot of roaches first. So the lack of strategic variety is on
the zerg side. As others have said, instead of worrying about
pointless early units like tankling and beastling, give zerg
something to do in the midgame other than make more roaches than
the terrans can handle.
T1 marine push really isn't an issue anymore for big spines.
Almost every terran is getting vets before they attack big
spines, because it's more efficient to convert to vets first and
that way not lose any (or very few) marines to the big spine.
So the game will continue to become more "one dimensional" with
your proposed patch. Terran will rush vets and zerg will mass
roach.
I also think you've listened to the crowd (which used to include
me) too much about ion not being viable. Having tried it
several games and seen others try it, ion is definitely still
very viable in this patch. You see it so rarely because most
players just assume it isn't feasible, but it is definitely
possible for a terran to get off 3-4 ions before the zerg can
push them up to the high ground. Which means if multiple
terrans go for ion, it is a viable strategy. So please don't
strengthen terran bunker. It is fine just the way it is, and as
time goes on, more players will figure this out.
[/quote]
sorry but all of this is simply not true...
roach is garbage unit now (I wanted speed to come and prove
otherwise- he didnt want to)
t1 pushes still happen (just saw najdorf pushing with t1 against
ultra few days ago) and when I myself did skip t1 at the start
of the patch now I am back to push with t1 first as it gave zerg
too much freedom to zerg to just skip them
didnt lose single game to ion since patch, either terrans knew
how to autocast rins faster than festors could get energy to
heal big spines and they just won, or they didnt in which case
infused,bruta, torra pick one rolled over all before even 1 hive
could be ioned down
but I agree that with party of 4 we messed around with 1
gas/inbase ion rush 1 day for memes and it somehow worked even
despite us messing around... but again it was party of 4 good
terrans almost everything works then
[/quote]
Najdorf can make anything work. Come on man.
Almost every game I've seen zerg win, it is with mass
roach/ravator/infused. Primals get rekt by vets. Roaches win
because they are cheaper and easier to overwhelm the terran
with.
I didn't say terran is skipping T1 marines. I said terran is
attacking big spines with vets. Almost every game, terran makes
20-30 T1 marines, clears everything in front of big spines,
upgrades to vets, and then attacks big spines.
Ion isn't popular now but it does work, as you just admitted.
[/quote]
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
did u actualy read what I wrote or just saw some words and went
to giving reply?
did I say najdorf is only one who is pushing with t1? no, I just
gave him as an exaple, in oposite to what u say t1 pushes on big
spines still happen
winning with roach and winning with infused are 2 completely
different things, as of now roach do s*** to stop pushing if its
only 1 supply I dont even bother uping to vets, if it is 2+ then
zerg just killed his eco and if I up at least half of my rins to
vets they melt not stop anything
if I see roach on 16 min then unless I am only one who is
pushing I know we just got free win as there wont be any
infused/bruta for next few min... just get vets and deflective
and roll over
I admited ion works? rly? where? I admited it works IN PARTY OF
4 COMPETENT PEOPLE, SITUATION IN WHICH MASS REAPERS WOULD
PROBABLY WORK
#Post#: 1337--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 16, 2020, 7:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1336#msg1336
date=1608166402]
did u actualy read what I wrote or just saw some words and went
to giving reply?
did I say najdorf is only one who is pushing with t1? no, I just
gave him as an exaple, in oposite to what u say t1 pushes on big
spines still happen
winning with roach and winning with infused are 2 completely
different things, as of now roach do s*** to stop pushing if its
only 1 supply I dont even bother uping to vets, if it is 2+ then
zerg just killed his eco and if I up at least half of my rins to
vets they melt not stop anything
if I see roach on 16 min then unless I am only one who is
pushing I know we just got free win as there wont be any
infused/bruta for next few min... just get vets and deflective
and roll over
I admited ion works? rly? where? I admited it works IN PARTY OF
4 COMPETENT PEOPLE, SITUATION IN WHICH MASS REAPERS WOULD
PROBABLY WORK
[/quote]
Did you actually read what I wrote? I said terrans are usually
upgrading to vets before attacking big spines, and now you've
gone off on two tangents about terrans skipping T1 entirely ...
Yes, zerg kills their eco to mass roach, but it's the only
viable zerg strat. Roaches are still more economically
efficient than primals. And because zerg kills their economy to
get roach, ion is viable. If you and your buddies keep doing
it, more players will catch on. Turtle terran doesn't need any
more buffs.
Ion should be a viable alternative strategy in response to
certain zerg strategies (like massing roach). It should not be
something that terrans can willy nilly choose from the start of
the game, which is what it was before 4.0.
#Post#: 1338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 16, 2020, 7:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
" mass roach, but it's the only viable zerg strat"
XD
ok I dont want to argue with u anymore... feel free to belive
so... I will always take 1 more zerg being free roll in players
pool... just pls dont go zerg with me, now that killing hive is
no longer possible it takes way to long for my liking to kill
all my nests and big spines before leaving
#Post#: 1339--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: dapperdann11 Date: December 16, 2020, 9:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Terran strategy has two main paths strong offense with
marines/shock troopers or a full turtle and ion down. The main
problem is is not the viability of either path but that these
strategies are in opposition to each other. Every terrain that
plays defense is a terran that can be ignored sabotaging the
offensive terrans. Every terran that goes offense is
fewer/slower ion cannons to burn down the zerg allowing time for
zerg to break a bunker.
instead of buffing the defensive terrans by making an op tank or
massive resource collection give a hybrid approach that is easy
to execute and that one that can transition into either offense
or defense.
Something that could work well at this is to give terrans a
spawner with similar restrictions as the zerg.
For example, a gateway that spawns disposable zealots. The
gateway will have no tech requirements but will have upgrades in
both the construction yard and the armory allowing for a solid
transition into either marine push or turtle.
#Post#: 1341--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Oayoo Date: December 17, 2020, 2:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=138.msg1338#msg1338
date=1608167944]
just pls dont go zerg with me, now that killing hive is no
longer possible it takes way to long for my liking to kill all
my nests and big spines before leaving
[/quote]
Nice way to play Zerg hex.
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1332#msg1332
date=1608160380]
I also think you've listened to the crowd (which used to include
me) too much about ion not being viable.
[/quote]
Glad to see that you understood your mistakes about the map.
Welcome to the critical mind side :)
[quote author=AAAAPPPPP link=topic=138.msg1334#msg1334
date=1608161602]
Have you played this patch? Roaches are absolute trash now
against T1 and T2 marines with shatter.
[/quote]
It is fun how in every patch you guys are missing what is the
real strength of the game. Roaches are without doubt the best
Zerg unit of the current patch. Why ?
- You can have them really early. In a push meta it is the most
important thing.
- Used correctly, they can kill any type of marines.
- You don't need to tech into ultra or bruts for the entire
game.
- You can break every low-ground with 1 or 2 ravators + mass
roaches and even high-ground.
- They are more lethal than primal/ultra and drain a lot of
energy.
- You will be able to have roaches speed 3 full upgraded + some
damage ultra fast (obviously if you don't share money, it will
be slower).
- Only really good players will be able to defend your roaches,
all the new/average players will instantly die.
- no skill required, you just need to f2 then click.
- You will be able to easily kill even Elites because Terrans
will not be able to sustain energy this early.
- They have low supply cost which means you can still go eco
while going all-in with them
I played lot of games on this patch, tried every strats possible
as Zergs.
The strongest build is to rush roaches sadly. And you guys can
be sure that i really hate that x)
If you guys want some replays you can find them in our discord
:) channel replays.
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=138.msg1337#msg1337
date=1608167509]
Ion should be a viable alternative strategy in response to
certain zerg strategies (like massing roach). It should not be
something that terrans can willy nilly choose from the start of
the game, which is what it was before 4.0.
[/quote]
YES ! ZergTriumph, i'm proud of you.
Wmaster, PLEASE, don't give defenders armor % again.
Now i wanna explain the mistakes of this potential patch:
What you are doing, Wmaster, is giving Zergs static buffs. What
Zergs need is to be able to express skill.
To do that, they need spellcasters units. If you give them
static buff, you will just have to nerf/buff stuff infinitly.
What you are doing with Terrans is the same mistake you did in
the past with chem/firebats.
You are creating a build out of the Terran tech tree. You are
encouraging Terran to expand to invest into a bunker build.
You need to understand that if you want to be able to do correct
damages to the zerg and maybe win the game (why not ?), there is
no way you can invest gas in yard early game.
If you want to encourage bunker, you should create a path for a
mid/late game bunker. If you want to give more gas, just put a
second upgrade on the gas geyser or buff converter.
Bunker is a mid/late game oportunity. Early bunker should be
banned from this game.
To conclude: Yard + defenders back + wall armor*2 + defenders
regen + Tank + Italis ===> bunker meta, here we go again.
Don't publish this patch please ! If you have questions, don't
hesitate to ask me.
#Post#: 1344--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: elon.schools@yahoo.com Date: December 17, 2020, 7:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here we are again, saying what zerghex is in our own opinions,
at this point we need wmaster to put his foot down and say what
he thinks zerghex should be so that we can stop arguing how we
all see it should be and then talk about how to balance it in
the way wmaster sees it should be. Granted, I dont expect him to
come out and say what he wants it to be, but as it is right now
everyone has their own ideas of what it should be.
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