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#Post#: 1306--------------------------------------------------
Changes Take 2
By: WMaster Date: December 16, 2020, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone,
As you might have noticed I tend to read more than participate
in balance discussions. Most of you already make very
informative and thought out posts so there’s little need for me
to ask questions. Just the need to piece everything together and
try to make a decision.
I’ve had some reports that the game is less enjoyed since the
coming of 4.0, and hope to be able to change that. Statistics
also show a decent drop in player activity. Must warn you that
it’s quite a long piece of art I created here. Summary is at the
end.
Strategic Variety
With the removal of Chemical Plants and the rework of Firebats,
there is little variety left to attack with as Terran. The new
Firebats seem not to fulfill any major role and this makes it
feel like they were flat out removed. There’s now just a single
army composition to work with and that makes the game feel more
one dimensional. Also a defensive tech path now has no tools to
put pressure on the Zerg, making it much less viable. The result
being there is quite a loss of viable strategies.
Some might perceive the lack of diversity to be something good,
as it gives clear incentive to what strategy is effective, so
their allies will be of greater use, but for most players it can
quickly become stale, it would be more fun if they were able to
try and discover new playstyles. Also, for some it might be very
hard to be effective with what’s currently in the game, they
might consider to not play the game anymore. I think it would be
good for those players if there were some easy to execute
strategies available, yet being cautious to not let such
strategies become too strong in the hands of more capable
players.
In my opinion there should be no problem with some suboptimal
strategies as long as it introduces some unique traits. I think
the term noob trap is used a bit too loosely, in my eyes a trap
would only qualify if it serves a similar purpose, has similar
traits and has a lower effectiveness for its combined tech,
train and maintain cost compared to something else. Perhaps
options without any contribution towards winning could also be
considered a trap, but generally these are rare. I think
allowing for some new but suboptimal playstyles would be good
for strategic diversity. Some might say they would have less
enjoyable games due to their allies being not as effective as
they could be. But who’s to say that they have not chosen the
most effective strategy for their specific skillset. Suboptimal
strategies can also become the most optimal when considering
counter play, although there is still to improve upon that
matter.
Bunker Strategies
It might have been unfair to call bunker and Chemical Plant
strategies being very boring to execute. Some players reported
it was quite enjoyable and that it was not just looking at
numbers meeting a certain threshold. There was a balance
required with getting enough defenses and getting more economy,
so you could later attack with higher tech units.
However, Hecari pointed out that there was a more fundamental
problem that might caused most complaints. When a player builds
a full walloff, Zerg cannot easily break this early on, so it is
likely more effective to rally all units to another player that
has an open base and try to deal damage there. The increase in
pressure can lead to frustration as it feels like it is a direct
result of your ally making a bunker. More experienced player may
be able to take the heat, but they would certainly hope that
their allies will become effective fighting the Zerg because of
their hold. Others may feel inclined to bunker themselves too,
even though they prefer another playstyle, the lack of choice
caused by an ally creating a bunker may be frustrating too.
Although arguments can be made that with every team game
choosing for a coherent strategy is highly effective. But this
can be hard with, what others also pointed out, a game that does
not have any ranked selection and is mostly filled with random
players. Players can just come into the Arcade, choose a game
and play a style however they feel like.
Knowing that, I think it would be great if bunkering were
possible alongside another playstyle. But currently some players
feel that bunkering is not viable anymore and that it forces
them to play differently. I have a few ideas to hopefully make
it a bit more viable and to not make it stress out aggressive
players.
[list]
[li]Allowing Zerg to have answers to bunkers earlier in the game
so they can still choose what player to pressure regardless of
playstyle.[/li]
[li]Adding a research for the Construction Yard to produces gas,
but with some risks to it.[/li]
[li]Reworking the Siege Tank to be a tool for bunker strategies
to pressure Zerg from a distance. It should have a significant
cost such that losing it is a major setback.[/li]
[/list]
Countering Bunkers Early
deorai037 came up with an idea to let Beastlings have increased
damage to structures and to reduce the cost of Armor 1 so it is
more easily attained. Terran bunker players would have to choose
between getting additional damage to keep Beastlings away from
walls or to invest into wall upgrades. I like the idea of having
multiple options here. Fortification upgrade is more effective
against higher attack rates with lower damage per attack.
However the Beastling already has a rather high attack speed of
0.7 sec, so to increase it further would make it look bad. To
increase its base damage to structures by a few numbers would
make it go on par with an Ultralisk. Which might be alright
given the cost of the spawners, but it does make it more
difficult to use armor to defend against them. Another option,
to which I’m leaning, is for them to deal splash damage to
walls. Effectively increasing the total damage for most
situations while splitting the damage to be reduced by multiple
sources.
Besides an option that scales well, it may be good to have an
effective option that’s just for the earlier stages. Given the
current nature of Tanklings being not very useful, they could be
given a bonus damage to structures which does not scale to
fulfill this role. They would still have their tickle ability to
units, but would do high damage to structures in the early
stages. Their primary goal would be to take down walls and I
think it would also be great if they were to target the closest
unit or structure instead of going after attacking targets, this
to prevent mazing from stopping them using their attacks. So a
good counter to mazing or funneling would be the Tankling.
Gas Production
Being able to build several Chemical Plants safely on the high
ground might have been too much. But I do think that investing
for later stages in the game can be a fun strategy. If Zerg is
able to put pressure to bunkers, then there is a way to attach
risks to it.
My idea is to allow the Construction Yard to generate gas when
it is built outside the main base. Since you can only build one,
there is not so much room for exponential growth. It should
first be researched at and has 3 levels. As an added feature,
the Construction Yard will only produce at full capacity when it
has been built for some amount of time. Initially I would try
about 5 minutes. This means when you lose the Construction Yard,
you’ll first have to find a way to build it outside the main
base again, and you’ll have reduced income for the first several
minutes after that. This might make the risk and reward a bit
more balanced.
As for actual values. I thought one Chemical Plant’s worth of
production to be its maximum. Producing as much as one to three
Refineries depending on level. And whether it’s upgraded
depending on the construction time, so that’s a +100% increase
after set amount of time. For the cost of researches, I was
thinking 150/250/350 gas, putting the total gas cost little over
what was required for the first Chemical Plant while allowing
for more efficient versions with partial investments.
Siege Tank
The Siege Tank was previously used against the former Ravager
artillery spawned from the Infestor which was consuming units
for energy. That feels like some time ago, and it wasn’t even in
a great spot back then. Mainly used to defend and delay the game
indefinitely. They’re not used as much today so I think it will
be good to rework them and make it an easy offensive tool for
bunker strategies.
Requirements
To prevent offensive power to get out of hand I’d like to make
it so you can just create one, like with Tech structures. I
propose to make it a bit out of the main tech tree so it becomes
a more specific playstyle. They would have to require to current
Sentry Supercharge research, which I’ll then rename to ‘Plasma
Cannons,’ since the Siege Tank effectively has a giant plasma
cannon and Sentry Guns have their colors shifted to red as well.
This means that 3 levels of Fortification must also be
researched, making it a good combination when the Siege Tank can
hit from behind walls.
Upgrades
To give more variation to the Siege Tank, there could be some
unit-specific upgrades like range, damage and impact radius or
even some variation with fire abilities. You could say it would
be like a hero unit. I feel like the upgrades should primarily
cost minerals, because it’s an investment in army. Needless to
say, upgrades will also perish when it’s destroyed. Giving Zerg
some leisure when they’re able to break into a fortified base
and destroying the artillery.
Balance
I can imagine concerns come to mind about it becoming a very low
risk compared to other offensive options. And I do agree it is a
much safer option, normally you have to work your way into a
stream of zergs, which can cost several energy charges and
possibly even units, so perhaps the cost of firing a blast can
be tuned to reflect that. With a significant cooldown, the
maximum offensive strength can be limited so a Zerg wouldn’t get
crippled too fast and is able to rebuild or heal up with
transfuse. I also feel like Zerg should be protected from such
attacks within the inner base and that the range could only
reach Large Spines when sieged outside the main Terran base.
Alerts
Previously Firebats had a problem where they could hit very hard
while Zerg being unable respond in time. For the Siege Tank I’d
like there to be plenty of time for the Zerg to prepare. I
thought of an alert message when they are created, together with
them being revealed at all times. New players will know what
hits them, and more experienced players will have time to
prepare an effective countermeasure as the upgrades may take
some time to get. As for countermeasures, there are not many
yet, spreading structures could work, but Zerg isn’t that
effective with defenses. It’s also a topic that has been
discussed. Perhaps Creep Tumors could boost regeneration and max
health to nearby structures, just a quick idea, let me know if
you have better ones. But no, Zerg cannot have massive Protoss
shields.
Balance Problem
Some mentioned there is a main balance problem where Terran is
too strong with skilled players, while Zerg wins most games with
less experienced players. Perhaps the Siege Tank will help even
out balance for newer players, but for the skilled scenario
there is need for Zerg to be able to counter devastating pushes.
Like stated before, Zerg doesn’t have great defensive abilities,
so to withhold attacks it often comes down to having enough
offensive strength from spawners or making a stand at Large
Spines with Transfuse. It makes defending a bit unstable. I
think Zerg could use some better defenses to prolong the game in
their favor.
Hydralisk
I think Hydralisks could be buffed to compete with early
aggression. I feel like they are currently in a spot where they
cost more than what they allow with buying time for income. Of
course this depends highly to how they are used, but I think
that’s good to set apart skilled players. However it’s easy for
them to become too strong, like they have been in the past, they
only need to be a threat combined with a stream of spawner units
and not become a major obstacle later in the game. They should
have less range than Marines so they can be kited, they can
close in when other units draw attention.
For the Hydralisk I’m thinking to reduce the maximum life stacks
by one, they’ll have a lesser health pool and also less maximum
range. But increase the rate to regain stacks significantly and
also start out with one stack when created. This so you can
create them when needed without them dying instantly, and the
faster regeneration allows them to be used for the next fight.
It would then be more vital to save them when they’re about to
die. It’s still hard to see which ones are prone to dying, so I
think using a different model, the default Hydralisk model, when
they have no lives left to indicate this.
I’ve read comments on the Hydralisks standard regeneration being
too slow too. It’s oftentimes better to kill and get full health
than to let it slowly regenerate. It’s indeed a bit silly, you
get 48 HP worth of regeneration in the same time you get a 200
HP life bonus. And that is even for a long 120 seconds. I’d say
let’s crank up that number and thanks for letting me know.
Infestor Transfuse
Besides making Transfuse cast instantly, I see another possible
improvement. It’s quite a waste to use Transfuse only for an
increase in structures maximum health, because you only get 100
additional life compared to a full 300 when being damaged. I’d
like to increase the health gain to 200 HP so it becomes a more
viable option. This is not so much an upgrade in the heat of
battle defending a Large Spine like the instant cast is, but it
does give more time to respond to an attack and regeneration
applies for longer. I consider it a minor buff to Zerg defenses.
Amount of stacks may remain the same.
Large Spine Crawler
On the topic of T1 Marines being relatively unchanged and their
offensive power remains too much in the hands of capable
players, I think increasing the Large Spines base damage and
impact radius would help. When increasing base damage from 70 to
75, the inner damage area will do exactly 45 damage, killing
multiple full health T1 Marines when they’re packed together.
Also, the outer radius will deal 15 damage instead of 14,
allowing to kill T1 Marines in 3 hits. Increasing the outer
radius will make it more likely they’re hit this many times.
There’s still an awkward spot when being hit by outer together
with the middle area, allowing to survive with 3 HP. Increasing
the middle damage from 35% to 40% will change that. Large Spines
should then be fine-tuned to deal with T1 Marines.
Enlisting changes:
[list type=decimal]
[li]Base damage from 70 to 75.[/li]
[li]Splash Areas radius from 0.7/1.2/1.5 to 0.7/1.2/2.0.[/li]
[li]Splash Areas damage from 60%/35%/20% to 60%/40%/20%.[/li]
[/list]
Banelings
I’ve done some experimentation with Banelings, they can be very
dangerous in higher numbers, but have no effect going in one by
one every 40 seconds. To that extend I think it would be good if
they were able to mass up with more than 2. Potentially even to
an unlimited amount as long as their train time is not that
fast. I believe it’s even possible to increase the train time
based on how many units spawned with the latest major update
Blizzard released. These dynamics were actually created to
enable more Moba type games, but they prove to be quite useful.
It might be great to have a different kind of dynamic like this.
I’ve also experimented with an added ability for Banelings.
Making them launch acid spores when exploding. These spores
launch into random locations dealing not too much area damage on
impact. Impact location range varies from nearby to about 7
range. Because of the random nature, it has a lower probability
for multiple spores from different Banelings to hit the same
location. This creates an effect that it’s stronger against
units with lesser health who need lesser hits at the same
location. Units like Veteran Marines are more likely to survive
and be back with full health the next wave. If the randomness is
disliked it can also be made to fire in the direction of the
attacker, but with lower damage. However, I personally like it
looking like an explosion with the random locations. They won’t
actually be fully random, I divided the general direction into 5
sections, and it will choose 3 out of those 5 to launch to.
Where it hits within the section is randomized with the
capabilities of the data editor.
With the increase in effective range, it becomes even more
crucial to keep them at a distance. Closer than about 5.5 range
could spell disaster. Therefor I propose to make them have much
lesser health, but increased armor. From 90/0 to 30/3. T1
Marines will take similar time to kill them, while Vets and
Elites have an easier time keeping them at a distance. Also
Shock Troopers can be a great counter if spotted early enough.
Firebats should be good at tanking them, keeping them away from
Marines. However, Firebats have been reported to be not that
useful. But if they were able to tank hits, then I think making
Banelings light units would do good, so they can’t just bypass
them.
Spores dealing 25 damage in a radius of 1 seems to be effective
at taking out groups of T1 Marines. Making them require 3 hits
does much less so. In conjunction with Hydralisks they might
also be a great defensive tool, but that has to be tested.
Firebats
My guess is that Firebats are not that durable to be used as a
tank. Proposing to increase health by quite some to get a feel
for what tanks will mean for the Terran army. Increasing health
from 100 to 200 and upgraded health from 300 to 500. I just hope
it will not tip the scale too much. What I imagine they could be
used for is to prevent more costly units from dying when facing
a large amount of grouped Zerg. They should be able to take hits
for long enough so the main damage dealers can clear the wave.
Maybe the Heavy Plating upgrade is a bit too expensive just for
a unit with that purpose, so reducing its cost from 250 to 200
might do well, you can get an additional 500 HP Firebat out of
it.
Minor Adjustments
[1] There were suggestions to incorporate more units into
certain Armory upgrades, an example being the Conservation
upgrade to include Firebats. And I think that’s a good idea to
some extend. I’ll throw in a variation that Reapers get +1
attack from Penetrating Laser too. Reapers are just used in the
early game and this might help for them to be effective for a
moment longer. They’re basically non-existent to Roaches and
beyond, so I think it wouldn’t hurt to give them this minor
buff, perhaps someone can find uses with it.
[2] Making hotkeys for Armory upgrades should also be a thing.
I’ve always been clicking upgrades, but there’s no need to
enforce that.
[3] Suggested has been to re-apply some damage reduction bonus
from Defenders to Construction Yards. Observed was that they
don’t feel like they add defensive value. This can be done, but
not as much as before. With a +4% on max 3 stacks you jump from
+67% to +108% effective health, I think that’s a good place to
start. Note that effective regeneration/repair also applies
here, so it should be noticeable given the added repair bonus.
[4] Tanklings have about a +39% effectiveness for taking hits
compared to Slowlings considering their armor bonus from Armor 1
and their training times. However, they cost about a 50-40% more
(decreasing with supply levels) while increasing income by the
same amount. I think putting them near 30% more cost would be
better. Decreasing mineral cost from 120 to 100 places them at
around 35-30% more cost.
[5] Also suggested was to decrease the Zerg Armor 1 research
cost. So it is less of an eco penalty which is crucial early in
the game. Beastlings could then be more of a choice perhaps. I’m
thinking to decrease it from 800 to 400. I feel like that makes
it more accessible, Armor 1 isn’t a high improvement and does
also not help with eco, so I think this change might be safe. Do
let me know if it is actually a bad idea.
Zerg Inner Base Idea
I came across this idea when I was looking for ways to prevent
Siege Tanks from attacking the Zerg high ground. The Idea is to
create large Zerg walls around the inner base area that prevents
attacking through. Zerg would have an ideal safe position
building there, as Terrans should only be able to attack from
the north and south entrance. No Siege Tank, Stasis Cannon or
any other form of attack, except for the Ion Cannon. Imagine it
being like a giant dome Zerg like structure that only Ion
Cannons can breach. Preventing scans from working there would
give Zerg some mystery as to what they are up to within their
inner base. The near-only way to find out is to send units up
the ramp that could very well be heavily guarded.
It can be made to look very well with all the effort the
Starcraft 2 team has put into creating models to be used for
aesthetics. There are way more of those than for actual units.
To make it actually function required some experimentation.
There’s no built-in function to prevent units attacking a
specific area, but I did find a decent option to prevent units
targeting a certain cliff level. This can be used if the inner
area were to be raised by one cliff level, so it becomes the
only area with cliff level 2. I’m not planning to raise all
surrounding areas to accommodate, as it would cost a lot of
space, which is comes at a premium for Zerg, not to mention the
pathway restrictions. But I am planning to raise the side areas
by one. This to give it some more protection and I think it
would look good. So it comes down to the inner base having a big
ramp of 2 levels. Layout will not change much.
With this, Zerg wouldn’t have to worry as much about where to
place eco structures, inside is safe. Personally I really like
the idea and its implications. Let me know if you have
suggestions for it.
Final Note
I hope these changes appeal to most of the players, I feel some
who enjoyed last patch might disagree with some aspects, as it
is a little step back from that general direction. Some
suggested to just try out some things, so here’s my proposal.
Let me know what you like or dislike, there’s room to adjust
like last time.
Changes will be subdivided into multiple patches, this because
of the battle.net patchnote limitations. I’ll try to keep
changes somewhat congruent within patches.
Summary
[list]
[li]Beastling
[list]
[li]Deal percentage damage to nearby walls upon attacking a
wall.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Tankling
[list]
[li]Deal additional flat damage to structures. Around 10-15
damage.[/li]
[li]Make default AI target closest enemy instead of attacking
enemies.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Construction Yard
[list]
[li]Add research to produce gas. Cost 150/250/350 for 1/2/3 gas
per 3 sec.[/li]
[li]Make gas production only possible when build outside the
main base.[/li]
[li]Add passive ability to generate double the gas income after
5 minutes of construction.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Rework Siege Tank
[list]
[li]Limit to only one that can be built from the Construction
Yard.[/li]
[li]Make it require upgrade ‘Sentry Supercharge’ but rename it
‘Plasma Cannons.’[/li]
[li]Increase creation cost to about 300 minerals and 100 gas.
Train time to about 40 sec.[/li]
[li]Allow for upgrades within the Siege Tank. They are lost when
destroyed.[/li]
[li]Make its fire ability cost quite a bit. Thinking 100-200
minerals, 2000-4000 energy.[/li]
[li]Make them revealed for Zerg and alert Zerg players when they
are constructed.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Hydralisk
[list]
[li]Starting with +1 life when spawned.[/li]
[li]Remove Hydralisk Spawn Size upgrades.[/li]
[li]Increase life gained rate, time from 120 sec to 50 sec.[/li]
[li]Increase life regeneration from 0.4 to 3.0.[/li]
[li]Reduce maximum lives from +3 to +2.[/li]
[li]Indicate having no additional lives with changed unit
model.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Infestor
[list]
[li]Make Transfuse cast instantly.[/li]
[li]Increase structure maximum health gain from 100 to 200. (Max
1600.)[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Tune Large Spine Crawler
[list]
[li]Increase base damage from 70 to 75.[/li]
[li]Increase splash radius from 0.7/1.2/1.5 to 0.7/1.2/2.0.[/li]
[li]Increase splash areas damage from 60%/35%/20% to
60%/40%/20%[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Upgrade Baneling
[list]
[li]Change health/armor from 90/0 to 30/3[/li]
[li]Make classify as Light.[/li]
[li]Add 3 Spores coming from explosion, dealing 25 damage in an
area with radius of 1.[/li]
[li]Make Spawner spawn an unlimited amount.[/li]
[li]Make Spawner train time depend on amount of units alive
produced from Spawner.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Buff Firebat
[list]
[li]Increase health from 100 to 200.[/li]
[li]Increase Heavy Plating upgrade health from +200 to
+300.[/li]
[li]Decrease Heavy Plating upgrade cost from 250 to 200
gas.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]Other
[list]
[li]Incorporate Shock Trooper and Firebat into Conservation
upgrades.[/li]
[li]Reapers gain +1 attack from the Penetrating Laser
upgrade.[/li]
[li]Re-add +4% damage reduction from Defenders linked to
Construction Yards.[/li]
[li]Decrease Tanklings Spawner mineral cost from 120 to
100.[/li]
[li]Decrease Armor 1 research cost from 800 to 400.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[li]New Zerg Base
[list]
[li]Raise inner base and extend the ramp.[/li]
[li]Protect inner base from all attacks except Ion Cannon, also
from Scans.[/li]
[li]Raise base side-areas to give it more protection.[/li]
[li]Make it look pretty with Zerg walls.[/li]
[/list][/li]
[/list]
#Post#: 1307--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 16, 2020, 8:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
obviously cant say much about those changes before testing them
but just from reading I feel like 500 hp fb may be a little too
good for big spine tanking
u cant rly micro as zerg when u are busy spamming transfuses and
just 2 fbs in front of army would give 1k hp to tank... feels a
little too much
other than that I really REALLY look forward to trying all this
new stuff out
rins pushing is fun but after a few dozen of games it starts to
become a little boring with every match looking the same
only thing I am sad about is no change for very early leave...
this thing rly is too broken
welp here come "some who enjoyed last patch might disagree with
some aspects" :D
new stuff coming to game and nabs+ink unhappy... who could ever
predict it XD
also speed I am still waiting for u to join mett stream and
prove to us how op roaches are
#Post#: 1308--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Speed Date: December 16, 2020, 8:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This is about what I expected, sadly I expected nothing good.
I can hardly see just 1 change that would add skill to the game.
(I guess there is some decision making for zerg, but I'm pretty
sure it will be mono-build for most players anyway).
Armor 1 400 minerals is ridicoulus, at least nerf infestor
attack range by 2 and reduce their move speed off creep by at
least 0.5!!!!! Infestor rush is already pretty potent at
cheesing out the 2 strongest terrans. (looking at you, Najdorf)
Buffing big spines, even if perhaps necessarry (for me they've
been fine the way the are), discourages terrans from pushing,
and rather resort to camping. This is bad^^.
Tankling... xd... 10-15 dmg? Primals have 11, ultra have 16.
What. In. The. Actual. Fuck. I'm not explaining why this is
ridiculous, you can figure out that one yourself!
The only zerg game I lost this patch was to ion!!!!! I won games
with roaches, primals, ultras and brutas used, roach is the
strongest (which is ridiculous, it's an A2 unit that is only 7
supply). Yet roach goes unchecked again, because community is
still whining xd(they really think roach is bad, when really it
is still the best xD). Ion / energy support for marines is
probably way better than tank, unless tank is OP, in which
case...
Just realise it already, you cannot give terran
2323978606204304897456349 tools, it will be impossible for zerg
to do shit. Yard can already produce gas, it's called
"converter" and has been in the game forever! I'm even
questioning terran's ability to win with ion sometimes. (of
course if ion is removed, some stuff like mass hydra and mass
infestor is something that has to be limited^^)
Middle is unchanged, so sides will use low ground yard I guess,
and middle still fucked over by map design. Perfect, that's what
we need, inequality based on spawn position. Let's camp for
those yard upgrades, while middle just cries. (had someone call
me the n-word and rq the game, because I was building my cow
economy and not pushing at 10min. Finished the game with vets,
despite that sucker leaving).
The firebat change is okay-ish, 500 HP will definetely be a
massive tank, if it's added, we will see whether or not it is
OP. The hydra change might be fine, though I don't think 7 range
hydras will be too useful at stopping a competent terran, but it
could be fine to add. Armor 1 change might be okay if infestor
is nerfed (attack range, movespeed off-creep). All other changes
are bad and the majority of them encourages camping. Bunker is
still too strong (at least strong enough) in current patch,
DON'T buff it.
Suggestion: Don't do this patch. No offense, but it's gonna make
the game worse than it is right now.
#Post#: 1309--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Oayoo Date: December 16, 2020, 9:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
To start, overall, this patch clearly nerf Terrans push power
which would be normaly not bad. However the way it is done is
dangerous:
With everything you add, Terrans will have the choice between
rush marines or rush tank.
Pushing with marines will be most likely impossible for an
average players because of the new Zergs buffs. They will
naturally go bunker and rush tank.
So we are going back to the old patch, (tank replace firebats).
All Terrans will camp behind walls and clear all the outside
ring of Zerg from afar with tank shot...
Now let's talk about individual things:
-armor 1 cost reduce: Zerg armor upgrades need some cost reduce
but not like that. You need to buff a little all the armor
upgrades. Decreasing a lot only armor 1 will open a new
disgusting behavior which is the infestors rush from start...
You really don't want to see that.
-Tanklings up against walls : I can't agree with these kind of
stuff. As i always said Zergs are strong mid/late game, you are
going to give Zergs more tools to all in early-game.
I can't believe you still are adding stuff like that. Zerg hex
totally don't need that.
-Beastlings up : same as Tanklings but with no impact, they will
still be useless. They need to be removed of the game.
-Yard upgrade : This is actually so messed up, i will try to
explain:
First, obviously players will abuse this new yard and play on
one gas with walls around 1 yard + defenders. They will fast be
able to have more eco with 1 gas than normal terrans will have
with 3 gases. This set-up will not break before torra/omegalisk.
Which means once again, Wmaster, you are telling to Terrans to
NOT expand !!!!
To resume, you are trying to encourage Terrans to expand by
building the yard outside for them to bunker ??? I'm sorry but i
don't understand the logic behind this move.
-Firebat's up : I actually like that. They obviously need to
tank more.
-New base : Nothing to say, it's cool.
-Siege tank : Can't say now, not enough data about it. Why not.
The only thing i can say is that you should just remove the
turrets because they are useless and encourage Terrans to play
bunker.
-Hydra/infestors buff : I'm fine with it, Zergs need power, it
is cool.
Last thing i want to say is that you totally can play bunker in
the current patch. I won games with ion against good players in
this patch. Bunker is not dead, players just didn't adapt to the
new patch. PLIZ, DON'T BUFF BUNKER with the return of the
defenders.
To conclude: some good stuff and lot of weird stuff, to not say
catastrophic.
#Post#: 1310--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: elon.schools@yahoo.com Date: December 16, 2020, 9:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
first I want to say I am looking forward to this patch. I will
have to play it to give full feed back.
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=138.msg1308#msg1308
date=1608130765]
Armor 1 400 minerals is ridicoulus, at least nerf infestor
attack range by 2 and reduce their move speed off creep by at
least 0.5!!!!! Infestor rush is already pretty potent at
cheesing out the 2 strongest terrans. (looking at you, Najdorf)
Buffing big spines, even if perhaps necessarry (for me they've
been fine the way the are), discourages terrans from pushing,
and rather resort to camping. This is bad^^.
Tankling... xd... 10-15 dmg? Primals have 11, ultra have 16.
What. In. The. Actual. ****. I'm not explaining why this is
ridiculous, you can figure out that one yourself!
The only zerg game I lost this patch was to ion!!!!! I won games
with roaches, primals, ultras and brutas used, roach is the
strongest (which is ridiculous, it's an A2 unit that is only 7
supply). Yet roach goes unchecked again, because community is
still whining xd(they really think roach is bad, when really it
is still the best xD). Ion / energy support for marines is
probably way better than tank, unless tank is OP, in which
case...
Just realise it already, you cannot give terran
2323978606204304897456349 tools, it will be impossible for zerg
to do ****. Yard can already produce gas, it's called
"converter" and has been in the game forever! I'm even
questioning terran's ability to win with ion sometimes. (of
course if ion is removed, some stuff like mass hydra and mass
infestor is something that has to be limited^^)
Middle is unchanged, so sides will use low ground yard I guess,
and middle still **** over by map design. Perfect, that's what
we need, inequality based on spawn position. Let's camp for
those yard upgrades, while middle just cries. (had someone call
me the n-word and rq the game, because I was building my cow
economy and not pushing at 10min. Finished the game with vets,
despite that sucker leaving).
The firebat change is okay-ish, 500 HP will definetely be a
massive tank, if it's added, we will see whether or not it is
OP. The hydra change might be fine, though I don't think 7 range
hydras will be too useful at stopping a competent terran, but it
could be fine to add. Armor 1 change might be okay if infestor
is nerfed (attack range, movespeed off-creep). All other changes
are bad and the majority of them encourages camping. Bunker is
still too strong (at least strong enough) in current patch,
DON'T buff it.
[/quote]
I do think the armor 1 drop to 400 is pretty bad, maybe 600 at
most. 400 lets people pretty much get earlier infestors and
really just mess with terrans who really cant stop them early.
Big spines did need a buff as pretty much anything besides
reapers and fire bats could just walk over them. This damage
buff will make T1 pushes pretty useless and force people to tech
up more than just T1 pushes. Which will give zerg time to eco or
get other units to stop terrans.
On tanklings 10-15 damage, that would be vs structure and not vs
units. He mentioned several times that it was to turn tanklings
into something useful to break turtles earlier rather than being
forced to move focus because a terran has fully walled off its
no longer efficient to target him.
I will say, if you play with other great zerg then you can win
90% of random lobbies as then are filled with noobs who dont
fully understand the game
Also, converters dont "produce" gas they consume minerals to
turn into gas. Not really producing since its a 2-1 trade as
well.
I do agree middle needs a redesign to be more like sides as
middle is really easy for zerg to break and hard for terrans to
hold all of it.
I do agree with adam on the firebat hp upgrade, its quite the
amount. 500 seems like it might be a little high.
#Post#: 1311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Speed Date: December 16, 2020, 9:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
And because converters burn minerals they are perfect. You
cannot just make X amount of them, you need to balance it.
I will post clip on "perfect" big spine kill. Dmg buff will only
help vs. noob + it's a buff that doesn't add any skill
sceiling, it just makes every zerg stronger.
Edit: screw that clip lol, have a fun replay I played a while
ago, one where I figured out big spines are a joke.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wm_o44be4DwLJn2Xol1McIolPTXVZJd7/view?usp=sharing
Yes, I'm free, yes zerg does little to nothing to defend big
spines, but just look how easily you can outmicro those things;
a dmg buff to big spines will be quite detrimental to bad
terrans, but not a big deal for good terrans (unless
re-targeted, but most zerg won't do that lol)
#Post#: 1313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: RickSanchez Date: December 16, 2020, 12:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
worst patch 2020
*e* follow up coming
#Post#: 1316--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 16, 2020, 1:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
so far seems like people who dont like it are (och surprise
surprise) nabs (+ink)
if nothing else this is proof beyond all how good this patch is,
they loved last one and like wm said himself game got quite a
hit to popularity
#Post#: 1317--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Speed Date: December 16, 2020, 2:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The average hating patch is a good thing. They all suck and
think game is tower defense^^.
There is plenty of (good) TDs on aracde, no need for hex to be
one^^ Yes, I like the current patch, even though roach is OP,
and yeah, it's far from perfect, but still better than 3.x
(firebat, omegalul), and this proposed change is just a step
back on many things.
Static zerg buffs, random new stuff for terran, that "encourage
different styles of play"...
Why is it so bad if terran has 1 main strategy?? Let's pretend I
wasn't against it, how do you make 3-5 strategies that are
different from each other, that are "fair" in balance, based on
timings, difficulty of execution and what your team does... they
won't be, or it will take a long long time of balancing... there
will always be that 1 strategy that is easier / better than the
others (similar to how roach is overall just the best zerg
unit^^)
I'm calling it right now, and you don't need to be a genius to
see this, but the proposed tank is either gonna be super useless
or super broken. For a new unit to "fit" into the game without
being too strong / weak there needs to be a lot more reasoning
behind other than "terran should have more than 1 build".
Besides, terran in current patch can do:
-Sheep into fast (9-10min) armory, try hurt and scare zergs
early, limiting their growth. (In theory this is the perfect
build, if all 6 terran can execute this kinda well, the zerg
will not just be limited in growth, they will (and should) die
before reaching any meaningful tool.
-6-9 sheep into fast yard for cows, armory at 14-16minutes, will
hurt zerg a lot later, but the army you will have at 20minutes
will be 2x the size of the army of the 1st build (cows are
stupid strong eco, but you have to invest right away, otherwise
it will take too long to pay off)
-Shock + reaper, while probably not the greatest, certainly is
still something you can play. Mass shock to snipe big spines can
be pretty strong, especially when you have good allies that will
take care of the zerg units, allowing you to take care of the
zerg's defenses.
-And obviously, if all of the above fails, any semi decent
terran can fall back to rushing ion - bunkering for a decent
amount of time is still very much possible. Especially the
earlier you realize that pushing the zerg will not succeed.
-Just playing support with lab, usually after taking a lot of
early focus / getting pushed back and delayed so much you cannot
make a strong army is totally viable. Depending on how the game
goes you might also do a fast ion to clear the 2 high ground
spines (this will be especially useful if that vision block is
implemented), setting up both for a victory by push & ion win.
Tell me again how terran is one-dimensional please. It clearly
isn't. Yes, the main strategy is to win by pushing of course,
but there is different ways to push, with different timings and
you can always fall back to ion, so you even have a secondary
way to victory. With proposed changes, the game will just be
weird and all over the place again... while that might be ok for
the popularity of the map, it certainly is horrible for the
quality of the game. If you want a popular game you should add
lots of cosmetics, a quick level up system (quick!!! nothing
grindy!!) that unlocks cosmetic rewards and maybe even some
actual stat advantages (we are talking about gaining popularity
here, not balance / quality game), add more critters for people
who contribute anything on the forum (especially zergtriumph
should get a pet in this scenario for all the crap he suggested
here lmao)
Adam should get a pet, too. Constant whining and provocating
like a little 5 year old kid xd.
I'll repeat myself. Don't do this patch. It's bound to mess up
the game, after we finally achieved some clarity about how the
map works... if TD players don't like it, then it's unfortunate,
but at the end of the day hex is not a TD (or am I missing
something here??)
Clearly the patch is not going to happen now, because Wmaster
exclusively listens to heXnabs, as can be seen in the proposed
thread here /s
#Post#: 1319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Changes Take 2
By: Adam Date: December 16, 2020, 2:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=138.msg1317#msg1317
date=1608149642]
Adam should get a pet, too.
[/quote]
yes pls
make it this mechanical wolf u can unlock in campaign <3
also speed accusing someone of being whinny and provocating :D
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