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#Post#: 1411--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: Speed Date: December 20, 2020, 7:27 am
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[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=136.msg1408#msg1408
date=1608470442]
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=136.msg1405#msg1405
date=1608467323]
Nono, terrans getting tank is more important! Who cares about
zerg losing 30 supply XDDDDDDDDDDDDD
/s
[/quote]
2 extractors + 4 spawners = 46 supply. So it is actually more
than one supply up that you are losing. I hadn't realized this
yet, it's actually much worse than I thought! ;)
[/quote]
And this is were I know it better than you. Yes, 4 spawners are
removed, but +4 base income is added to all spires, so you only
lose the pressure of those 4 spawners, which is fair since they
would be stacked on a terran that isn't supposed to have those 4
spawners on him. You do not lose the income, hence you don't
really lose those 16 supply.
Prime example of people complaining about stuff they don't fully
understand. Happens a lot on this forum!
#Post#: 1412--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: Mett Gaming Date: December 20, 2020, 7:43 am
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is that were you tell me that zerg does infact have an easier
life with a third of his income gone right from the start? :P
we can argue about roaches being too strong or not (have yet to
lose a single game to a zerg building roaches). But even if it's
"only" effectively 30 supply. The fact remains that the game
switches way into the terrans favor just by someone leaving the
game.
And to be completely transparant: this is only such a big deal
because I have on average at least 2 games per stream were a guy
(ink) just does this to screw over the zerg. Yes the zerg and
not his terran teammates. The way the game works and the fact
that in 80% of my games I have at least 2 other competent
terrans just means that he can decide that terrans will win by
just simply destroying his command center where it otherwise
would have been an amazing grind with lots of battles and
struggles. Which is the reason we play this game.
Let's settle on keeping the 30 supply then. The way the game is
balanced you simply cannot recover from this as zerg. The early
and midgame timings are just too tight to be able to compensate
for a guy pressing delete on his cc...
#Post#: 1413--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: Speed Date: December 20, 2020, 8:15 am
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2 out of 6 spires is also not a 1/3 of zerg income, because hive
generators 80minerals /min (though I'm fine with calling it 1/3,
hive is not a big deal)
No, I'm not saying this thread is entirely wrong, I'm just
saying you don't even fully understand the dynamic of early
leave when you claim zerg lose 46 supply. The issue of early of
leaver has been discussed on heXnab discord months before this
forum was even created x)
You ask for a fix, but 0 details. Meanwhile heXnabs:
Make Zerg supply cost scale
Explanation: The problem is Zerg’s supply goes down while the
supply cost does not with the Terran very early leaver bonus.
This is way too strong for Terran, as this effectively reduces
their economy by >1/3 for the entire game. and the leaves supply
cost the same. It should only slow down the Zerg economy and
reduce pressure for a short time.. It is very possible for a
good enough Terran to never lose in this kind of situation.
(posted 7th of july 2020 btw)
I'm pretty sure this suggestion has been sent to Wmaster via
email a long time ago. I'll actually say that I don't quite
agree with the wording, zerg only lose 1/3 of their economy
(ignoring hive income) at the start, later on 2 spires is far
from being 1/3 of income, however the loss of the 2 spires is
never eliminated, the impact is only softened as game
progresses. That said, it obviously hits hard, don't need to be
a genius to see this, hence why even keks like you post about
it.
I'm annoyed by you keks making posts about balance / design
issues, without even fully understanding said issues and then
not even proposing the least bit of a suggestion how to approach
the issue, leaving all the work to Wmaster, not just changing
the issue, but also figuring out in what way to change it, but
I'm glad you all have ego and think you are fantastic zerg hex
players, with amazing gameknowledge. Put some actual effort into
improving the game, stop low effort whining, it's annoying and
it's sad when it gets you anywhere, if Wmaster had just ignored
all the low effort whining, the "Changes Take 2" thread would
have looked way different :/
Thanks for coming to my Ben Shappiro talk.
Edit: No, asking for keeping the entire supply / structures is
not an "approach to the issue", LOL
#Post#: 1414--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: RickSanchez Date: December 20, 2020, 8:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=136.msg1412#msg1412
date=1608471830][...] a guy (ink)[...][/quote]
just wanted to note that mett exclusivly plays with adam so he
has no clue about solorandom play since he never does that. they
just amplify their suggestions. Imagine one of these guys would
say the opinions and suggestion of another well known premade
team are less worth because they dont play solo... What is
english translation for german saying sich gegenseitig in den
arsch kriechen?
Imo dont change this since you also have to fight one less
terran. adam just whines because he cant hit his timings after
that happens.
the early time before 2:15 is needed to estimate if the random
lobby you joined is worth the time. adam, if you complain about
mid leaving after F2, why dont stop f2'ing mid then? oh yea it
is op and abuse... of course you feel like you have the right to
do it.. adamstyle..
The penalty is absolutly justified. if there would be no all
other terrans could instantly leave since game would be over
then.
#Post#: 1415--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: Adam Date: December 20, 2020, 8:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=136.msg1414#msg1414
date=1608474327]
[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=136.msg1412#msg1412
date=1608471830][...] a guy (ink)[...][/quote]
just wanted to note that mett exclusivly plays with adam so he
has no clue about solorandom play since he never does that. they
just amplify their suggestions. Imagine one of these guys would
say the opinions and suggestion of another well known premade
team are less worth because they dont play solo... What is
english translation for german saying sich gegenseitig in den
arsch kriechen?
Imo dont change this since you also have to fight one less
terran. adam just whines because he cant hit his timings after
that happens.
the early time before 2:15 is needed to estimate if the random
lobby you joined is worth the time. adam, if you complain about
mid leaving after F2, why dont stop f2'ing mid then? oh yea it
is op and abuse... of course you feel like you have the right to
do it.. adamstyle..
The penalty is absolutly justified. if there would be no all
other terrans could instantly leave since game would be over
then.
[/quote]
I play solo more games than u ever will with how u leave 80%+ of
them
#Post#: 1416--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: Mett Gaming Date: December 20, 2020, 8:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=136.msg1414#msg1414
date=1608474327]
just wanted to note that mett exclusivly plays with adam so he
has no clue about solorandom play since he never does that.
[/quote]
Not true. I have video evidence of me playing solo with randoms
(as in the few times I somehow manage to join a 7/8 lobby)
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=136.msg1414#msg1414
date=1608474327]
adam, if you complain about mid leaving after F2, why dont stop
f2'ing mid then?
[/quote]
What you are asking is to basically just ignore you for the
first 2:15. Because apparently as zerg you are not supposed to
be able to put on any kind of early pressure. Not to mention you
also left when not mid and recieving a few extra spawners.
I mean why have early game at all. Let's just start every terran
off with a fully walled base, maxed out fruit farms and a push
ready army and zerg starts with armor 2 and 2 half energy
infestors at every big spine. Easy fix?
#Post#: 1417--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: Speed Date: December 20, 2020, 9:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Eh the penalty is quite rough, but this has to be changed
extremely carefully - should early leaving even slightly favour
zerg, then it is obvious every terran with 2 braincells will
follow the initial leaver.
I've posted this when forum was brand new, remove 1 of the 2
spires, remove 15 starting supply from zerg, add 4 spires on
high ground. I'm not 100% sure if losing only 1 spire would
favour zerg too much, it could definetely favour zerg if they
only lose 1 spire^^. Overall I think it would be a decent design
change, helping out zerg quite a bit. It wouldn't even be a
change meant to address early leave in my book; it would just
accidentally help with it xD
In the end, zerg needs to be able to express skill, that's more
important than early leave and power of T1 / T2. However I have
no new ideas about that sadly :/ And as far as I have seen,
nobody else does either.
#Post#: 1418--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: RickSanchez Date: December 20, 2020, 9:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Adam link=topic=136.msg1415#msg1415
date=1608475153]I play solo more games than u ever will with how
u leave 80%+ of them[/quote]
You? Yea.. but..
The %number is fake.
Also:
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=136.msg1414#msg1414
date=1608474327]
[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=136.msg1412#msg1412
date=1608471830][...] a guy (ink)[...][/quote]
just wanted to note that mett[...][/quote]
but I couldnt have ask for a better example for
[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=136.msg1414#msg1414
date=1608474327][...]they just amplify their
suggestions.[...][/quote]
since you both almost instantly replied in the same tenor
[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=136.msg1416#msg1416
date=1608475461][...]I mean why have early game at all. Let's
just start every terran off with a fully walled base, maxed out
fruit farms and a push ready army and zerg starts with armor 2
and 2 half energy infestors at every big spine. Easy
fix?[/quote]
classic humorous distraction but has nothing to do with the
issue of the fact that zerg has too much power earlygame to deny
any terranplay but highground ion. yea.. not gonna do that. and
it is a valid reason to leave the game. if you dont want that to
happen wait the very early game to end before doing f2 or
capacity. if you do it's a gamble you take..
of course it makes sense that adam defends capacity in its
current form since adam loves to abuse. and you love to play
with adam..
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=136.msg1417#msg1417
date=1608476911]Eh the penalty is quite rough, but this has to
be changed extremely carefully - should early leaving even
slightly favour zerg, then it is obvious every terran with 2
braincells will follow the initial leaver. [...][/quote]
This!
#Post#: 1425--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: Oayoo Date: December 21, 2020, 7:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You guys are always fighting against each other and miss the
points every single time^^
I will try to refocus the debate.
We shouldn't ask if it is right or wrong to leave early game but
WHY ARE PLAYERS LEAVING EARLY GAME AND HOW TO FIX THAT.
If players leave early game pre 2.15, there are reasons: What
are these ?
-The Zerg player is able to put all his map pressure on one
player from start (F2). Most likely on mid.
-The Terrans are all new players/noobs making the only good
player to leave (it happens for Zergs too).
-Disconnected Terran (rare)
-The Zerg put literally all his supply into spawners from start
on one player.
We can't fix the disconnected Terrans, the F2 or the noobs. The
only things we can fix are these early all-in from Zergs and the
mid area.
As i said in previous thread, capacity spawners must be reworked
to not be efficient early game. For the mid area, this is a
ground problem wmaster should be able to fix.
To conclude: The penality is really important but as most
players said, is too high for Zergs. Best fix is to scale the
supply cost/leavers.
#Post#: 1426--------------------------------------------------
Re: leave before 2:15
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 21, 2020, 7:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm confused. I thought the hexnabs believed that upgrading
spawner capacity early does more harm to the zerg's economy than
to the terran, but now you're saying that it's actually better
for Zerg to up its spawners early?
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