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#Post#: 1320--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Adam Date: December 16, 2020, 2:27 pm
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[quote author=Turb007 link=topic=133.msg1318#msg1318
date=1608150135]
[quote author=ExtraLemon link=topic=133.msg1312#msg1312
date=1608135089]
Well, the main issue is that Terran/Zerg doesn't have a high
enough skill cap to hard carry, no matter how overwhelmingly
good you are you can't deal with a full map f2 +upgraded
spawners even if that's all that the Zergs know how to do.
Similarly, you can be the best Zerg in the world yet be crippled
by your ally afking. That's really the main issue in my opinion,
that you can lose to players way worse than you even with very
good play through no fault of your own. It's better for Terran
because you have 5 other people, odds are that one of them won't
sit and die. Even though it's a team game, it's still very
frustrating to lose games because you have useless allies.
[/quote]
I agree with this and yes, it is very frustrating when you are
"on a roll" and doing amazing at holding almost all of the
pressure and still able to do damage into the 15-17 minute mark
and then you all of a sudden get ROFL-Stomped with a 100% focus
higher tier unit around the 20 min mark because none of your
allies have done anything except maybe take their buggos. The
story is basically the same with zerg except you may not even be
able to hold your own side because your'e partner thinks that 20
spires (maybe an exageration) before a spawner is how to get
good eco.
However, this IS a TEAM game. You are not supposed to be able to
hold a constant full map f2 (full map f2, meaning from both
zergs I assume?). I don't care how good that terran is, they
should not be able to hold that for very long. This is where
you're allies are supposed to really do something and get damage
in. I understand the frustration that often times they don't,
but again, this is a team game. If none of you're allies act as
a team then you SHOULD lose, no matter your skill level.
This seems like an arguement that could be comparable with melee
2v2's. Sure you can play with random partners, but you have no
gurantee that your partner isn't actually a gold leaguer who
just cannon rushed his way to Masters 3 and as soon as that
doesn't work, he's useless. If you actually want to be
competetive, find a partner. Or, get out of 2v2 and do 1v1's.
Maybe some players would enjoy an actual playable 1v1 version of
hex? I'm not sure, could start a poll or something..
[/quote]
while I will take solo zerg every time of the day I rly have no
idea how 1 player terran would be supposed to look
#Post#: 1331--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Turb007 Date: December 16, 2020, 4:32 pm
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[quote author=Adam link=topic=133.msg1320#msg1320
date=1608150444]
while I will take solo zerg every time of the day I rly have no
idea how 1 player terran would be supposed to look
[/quote]
That's probably because of the inaccurate way of nerfing a zerg
when a player leaves. Right now, clearly the terran would win
every time. There obviously needs to be a rework there as others
have said, that way it's an actual game.
#Post#: 1342--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: ExtraLemon Date: December 17, 2020, 6:56 am
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[quote]
This seems like an arguement that could be comparable with melee
2v2's. Sure you can play with random partners, but you have no
gurantee that your partner isn't actually a gold leaguer who
just cannon rushed his way to Masters 3 and as soon as that
doesn't work, he's useless. If you actually want to be
competetive, find a partner. Or, get out of 2v2 and do 1v1's.
Maybe some players would enjoy an actual playable 1v1 version of
hex? I'm not sure, could start a poll or something...[/quote]
This is a poor analogy. In melee, your random partners will at
least have a similar MMR to you. Even if it's someone who only
cannon rushes, it's someone who will be fairly good at cannon
rushing. In Zerg Hex you're essentially getting random teammates
from all across the ladder vs random enemies all across the
ladder. The problem here is, if you roll too many bad teammates,
there is no actual way to win the game. In ladder, a masters
player can probably easily beat 2 golds or platinum, in Zerg Hex
there is no skill-based mechanic that will ever let you
reasonably defend a certain amount of pressure. The issue here
is that in Zerg Hex, hard focusing certain players is one of the
most viable strategies, you can easily expect 3-4 terrans per
lobby to be useless. This creates unfun gameplay for both
terran/zerg. Zerg has to get lucky in getting lots of useless
terrans, terrans have to get lucky and hope their teammates
don't afk and casually float 800 gas off an income of 200/min
#Post#: 1343--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Speed Date: December 17, 2020, 7:31 am
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200gas/min? More like 100 (2 unupgraded refs + cc)
Couldn't agree more x)
#Post#: 1361--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Turb007 Date: December 17, 2020, 3:57 pm
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[quote author=ExtraLemon link=topic=133.msg1342#msg1342
date=1608209799]
This is a poor analogy. In melee, your random partners will at
least have a similar MMR to you. Even if it's someone who only
cannon rushes, it's someone who will be fairly good at cannon
rushing.
[/quote]
That is not true. Terrible cannon rushers can have any amount of
MMR (besides GM), so their MMR is not very meaningful. It's very
possible for a gold league player to reach masters 3 by basic
cannon rushing, without doing any fancy 3 plylon and/or gateway
blocks or any other Florencio level play. There's plenty of
videos of low diamond players getting masters 1, some GM with
simple cannon rushes. I've personally seen a couple golds get
masters 3. They only win vs high diamond players when they are
too lazy/forget to scout. In a 2v2 masters game, this doesn't
happen (or at least very rarely) as you have 2 very good players
whom at least one of them will always scout. Therefore, a basic
cannon rusher will do almost nothing in a masters team game
other than maybe deny some mining time of one player of up to 10
workers for ~30 seconds. So then, you're left in a 2v1 of people
with similar MMR as you.
"In ladder, a masters player can probably easily beat 2 golds or
platinum, in Zerg Hex there is no skill-based mechanic that will
ever let you reasonably defend a certain amount of pressure."
Yeah, 1 masters player should be able to beat 2 low diamonds
even. But ladder is based off of MMR, and therefore a masters
player should not be in a team game vs 2 less-than masters
players. And there is nothing that 1 master's player can do to
reasonably defend from 2 masters players.. So without delving
into the example any further, I don't see how this is a poor
analogy. Unless you're talking about defending from 2 plat
league-like zerg hex players when you're, say, a masters player?
If that's the case, then that still points to hex being a team
game.
You say "if you roll too many bad teamates, there is no actual
way to win the game". The way I see it, yes. Yes, that is what a
team game is, is it not? You need at least something of a team
to win a team game, otherwise it wouldn't be a team game.. I
understand that random lobbies are very rough and decent players
get focused almost every single game. I play +98% of my games in
random lobbies, I understand. But there should be no reason that
I should be able to solo an entire game that is supposed to be
even remotely balanced for 6 terrans, no matter how good I am.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but at the very
least, that's my take.
#Post#: 1367--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Speed Date: December 18, 2020, 4:32 am
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What if the master league player is a standard player and he
plays against 2 cannon rushers though?
Checkmate atheists.
Teamgames in SC2 are regularly extremely imbalanced when you
look at the 1v1 mmr of players, similar to arcade games like ZH.
ExtraLemon is totally right, stop trying to make it sound like
he isn't, somebody might believe it...
#Post#: 1374--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Turb007 Date: December 18, 2020, 10:21 am
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[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=133.msg1367#msg1367
date=1608287533]
Teamgames in SC2 are regularly extremely imbalanced when you
look at the 1v1 mmr of players, similar to arcade games like ZH.
[/quote]
I recently carried a friend who is new to sc2 to diamond 1 in
2v2. He's maybe a silver player himself (currently in gold due
to his Florencio inspiration :P). Likewise, once we got to
diamond 1, it's much more difficult for me to carry vs 2 players
that are closer to my skill level. I've played against a few 1v1
GM's in team games, they are usually doing the same thing
(besides the occasional double GM smurf). Anyways, point being,
the 2v2 game itself is not imbalanced, its the team itself that
can be imbalanced.. The team will still have a similar MMR as
your team.
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=133.msg1367#msg1367
date=1608287533]
ExtraLemon is totally right, stop trying to make it sound like
he isn't, somebody might believe it...
[/quote]
One person should not be able to win the game by himself (unless
the opposing team is completely braindead and in that case, you
can already solo them). That is not what a team game is. That
is/was the only point I've been trying to make. Either we have a
very different understanding of what a team game is, or I'm
misunderstanding what you two are saying.
#Post#: 1376--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Speed Date: December 18, 2020, 10:33 am
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You can solo carry league of legends easily, a 5v5 "teamgame"
MOBA.
Yes, in theory a teamgame depends on several people doing stuff
and achieve victory together, in practise this rarely happens.
The issue is zerg hex doesn't have enough mechanics to express
skill and while a good terran can shine quite a bit, especially
early game there isn't much you can make shine.
You carried a silver player to teamgame diamond? And then at the
same time you are saying that a 1v1 master cannon rusher will
fuck you over.
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
DDD
Stop making it sound like ExtraLemon is wrong, cause he isn't.
#Post#: 1377--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: Turb007 Date: December 18, 2020, 10:42 am
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[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=133.msg1376#msg1376
date=1608309235]
You can solo carry league of legends easily, a 5v5 "teamgame"
MOBA.
Yes, in theory a teamgame depends on several people doing stuff
and achieve victory together, in practise this rarely happens.
The issue is zerg hex doesn't have enough mechanics to express
skill and while a good terran can shine quite a bit, especially
early game there isn't much you can make shine.
[/quote]
I'm not familiar with LoL almost at all so I can't speak about
any of that. I agree though that the skill level of both terran
and zerg could/should be higher, I never argued with that.
[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=133.msg1376#msg1376
date=1608309235]
You carried a silver player to teamgame diamond? And then at the
same time you are saying that a 1v1 master cannon rusher will
**** you over.
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
DDD
[/quote]
When did I ever say "that a 1v1 master cannon rusher will ****
me over"?
"Stop making it sound like ExtraLemon is wrong, cause he isn't."
Keep saying that without explaining why :P
#Post#: 1441--------------------------------------------------
Re: How do you feel about the balance of zerghex right now?
By: ZergHexIsLife Date: December 22, 2020, 12:51 pm
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I think it would be good to keep on topic of the thread here.
Regardless of who we think is overpowered (Seen most people say
Terran and i agree but it doesn't matter for the following
point), there need to be some SKILLFUL additions to the mid/late
game that pros can use to really show their worth, alongside a
minor tweak here or there to the mid/late balance.
Personally I liked the suggestion of an spellcaster that can
create temporary barriers for Zerg, rather like the toss
forcefields in matchmaking.
Also how about armour tech actually upgrading armour & terran
having an armour piercing tech to counter this at a price (This
would only affect mid-late game and not early).
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