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#Post#: 1130--------------------------------------------------
Give hydras faster HP regen
By: ExtraLemon Date: December 3, 2020, 9:21 am
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2 major issues come with using Hydralisks for defense before the
late game:
1. Very high cost
2. Low survivability/sustainability
Even with good micro, hydras will have their HP slowly chipped
away by shattering laser making it very hard to effectively
defend with them early to mid-game. Small numbers of hydras can
take 30 seconds of Zerg income or more, yet take so long to
build up layers and health again that they are hardly better
than just building more spawners or infestors for more
transfuses/energy drain. At best, you have to hope that the
Terrans just aren't paying attention so you will have enough HP
to defend more than a few attacks. The only point where they
become viable is late game, where they become very cheap
relative to Zerg income and you can easily mass them to defend
or siege down players. By giving hydras more HP regen, it will
make them more viable in the early-medium game and give Zerg
another microable unit to help defend without making them
overpowered in the late game.
#Post#: 1131--------------------------------------------------
Re: Give hydras faster HP regen
By: Speed Date: December 3, 2020, 10:01 am
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Hehe, I've just started testing hydras, and I got 60 kills
across 3 hydras (built at 6-7min with 900 inc), and yeah,
terrans were bad of course, but it was incredibly fun to use
those hydras kek.
They do regenerate very slowly (I used a couple transfusion to
heal up very bruised ones). In general it takes quite some
effort to micro the hydras and they probably don't quite return
their investment vs. stronger terrans sadly :/ (though I know
from a few games vs. Najdorf that hydras can be quite a pain)
I need to get some more epxerience, but a small regeneration and
/ or range buff (as little as +0.5 to +1) or -X seconds to layer
growth time would probably be nice. However with any buffing the
massing hydra at price of very delayed economy needs to be kept
in check. Then again I feel like a good team of terrans will
find a way to work around a big hydra army (e.g. scan, then
stasis cannon it, get marines on top, delete the hydra army,
win). I'd definetely like hydras to be a early game defense /
delay unit, it requires a lot of micro (individual skill of
players, both on zerg and on terran side will determine who
comes out on top), but as I said, it probably needs some hlep
(buff) to fully grow into that role.
I will try and play around with hydras a bit more and then
comment again... ExtraLemon already told me he will own my
hydras if his gpu ever is delivered xD (I'm afraid my hydras
will indeed be owned xD ). Only played a single game so far and
it was fun :D
#Post#: 1139--------------------------------------------------
Re: Give hydras faster HP regen
By: Speed Date: December 3, 2020, 2:05 pm
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Without having played more with hydra yet, just some process of
thoughts I had...
We could technically make hydras a lot better but limit them at
X amount. As is, 150 minerals will be a lot early game, even if
bought just a few times, it will be costly in midgame, but kinda
spammable if you really want to, and obviously be spammable late
game, thus if hydra is strong, will likely be spammed in mid
game. Hydra used to be a main tool (or literally THE main tool
in some patches) to break bunkers, nowadays zerg has several
tools (ravator, infused, torra, omega) so the late game
spammability of hydralisks isn't needed as much. (In case it
turns out hydra is still needed, could add upgrade to raise /
remove limit entirely, upgrade just needs to be unaffordable
early / mid game (let's say 10k, for that amount of money you
could easily just tech instead, but late game it isn't that much
anymore).
So if we limit hydralisks I think we can give them buffs like
this:
-Reduce time of layer growth to 80s-100s (meant to help them get
online a bit sooner; they need range to fight with the terran
armies) (maybe make the "natural" layers grow faster, and give a
different type of re-growing when terrans destroy a layer; if
the layer time is 80s or lower it might not be meaningful when
terrans manage to destroy a layer).
-Give +1 range (either base or 1 more layer; again, range is
very important to fight terran armies)
-1HP/s regen (currently if hydras take damage, they will only
recover very slowly, and avoiding damage is pretty much
impossible with the current max range being 8 cause marines have
8 range, too. With 9 range it would be easier, but still hard to
fully dodge)
-Pushing priority over low tier units (lings, strikes, tanklings
(kek), creepers etc)
These types of buffs could make hydras very good defense units -
in the hands of a fast, skilled player. (whilst a bad player
will likely end up losing them to good terrans).
#Post#: 1151--------------------------------------------------
Re: Give hydras faster HP regen
By: Speed Date: December 4, 2020, 6:39 am
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And having played with hydras just one more time, I'm pretty
sure they are garbage.
The issues;
At best they have 5 + 3 range (5 base + 1 for each layer, 3
layer is max), getting +3 range takes 6minutes, so you have to
invest into them 6minutes ahead of time. So to fight a good
terran, that will start poking / pushing around 9-11 minutes
(depends on style), to have fully grown hydras at 9 min you'd
have to invest into them at 3 minutes, at that point terran
doesn't even have to deal damage to you, you've dealt it
yourself. Furthermore even a fully layered hydralisk will
require a lot of micro and can be in lots of trouble, if the
terran manages to outmicro you once, if you lose 200hp you lose
1 layer and along with it 1 range, at wich point you're down in
range (and being even on range is already not that favorable
imo), from there, especially vs. good terrans, it will just
snowball.
Making hydras has the same purpose as infestors... stop the weak
terrans that are just barely strong enough to push through the
eco lings. Against a strong player they'll be pretty worthless.
I don't think buffing them as proposed earlier will make it any
better. It will either turn OP or pretty useless, I think.
#Post#: 1154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Give hydras faster HP regen
By: Mett Gaming Date: December 4, 2020, 5:37 pm
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I do think giving hydras additional range from the start might
enable the hydra"rush" build to become more powerfull. Depending
on how much the zerg invest into that but he could potentially
just kill a chosen player without much chance of withstanding
within the first minutes. Especiall in mid position you can just
place tumors forward and walk hydras directly into the terrans
base and seeing how they two shot everything early, two hydras
and two tumors might be enough to completely gut a terran for
just the low price of 90s of eco.
It's still a high investment but if it hits you, you are toast.
Think of it as a mobile spine rush...
#Post#: 1165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Give hydras faster HP regen
By: Speed Date: December 5, 2020, 3:14 am
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[quote author=Mett Gaming link=topic=124.msg1154#msg1154
date=1607125061]
I do think giving hydras additional range from the start might
enable the hydra"rush" build to become more powerfull. Depending
on how much the zerg invest into that but he could potentially
just kill a chosen player without much chance of withstanding
within the first minutes. Especiall in mid position you can just
place tumors forward and walk hydras directly into the terrans
base and seeing how they two shot everything early, two hydras
and two tumors might be enough to completely gut a terran for
just the low price of 90s of eco.
It's still a high investment but if it hits you, you are toast.
Think of it as a mobile spine rush...
[/quote]
Well, the zerg probably has to invest into spawners on that
terran, too, otherwise reapers should be able to target down
tumors as they are building. Unless hydras are too close, but
shock and marines can do it, too, with more range and less
damage. The terran should be able to easily survive on the high
ground and play support from there, and the zerg will have used
most of his early game money and attention on middle terran.
Just like massing spawners with capacity, it would be a strategy
only beneficial when you have 2 noobs / bad terrans on your
side... in which case I genuinly think you could get away much
more economically, resulting in more affordable speed and tech
upgrades (those will be very helpful for the other zerg^^)
Hydra rush already exists, and while buffing hydra, particularly
base range, would certainly strengthen it, I don't think it
would be much of an issue.
Hydra base damage is 15, they 2 shot reapers, 3 shot T1s, 6 shot
shocks, 2 shot SCVs, 2 shot battery. x)
Infestor rush is stronger than hydra rush imo, though I never
tried hydra rush^^
#Post#: 1256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Give hydras faster HP regen
By: deorai037 Date: December 11, 2020, 1:25 am
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I, uh, what? People actually rush offensive hydras (and not get
insta-murdered for gibbing their eco on hydra/tumor)?
As for hydras, what about giving them +1 armor at like armor 2?
just spitballing ideas. The main issue I see with +1 hydra range
is that I feel that more buffs hydras for late game, but +1
armor might be a stronger buff for them in the midgame (in that
it would make them stronger vs t1 but not very different vs
t2/t3). It also lets the Zerg lean on more reactive play and
might be better for Zerg recovery than a longer range hydra
I also agree with the increased push prio as just a pure QoL
change, it's a pain in the ass to see a random hydra end up off
creep because they walked into a strykeling once and got
confused
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