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#Post#: 1124--------------------------------------------------
Issue with Zerg
By: Statistics Date: December 3, 2020, 5:16 am
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This will be more of a theoretical post than a balance
suggestion, I prefer talking about game design and letting the
developers handle balance.
A lot of people have different issues with how Zerg works in the
game, especially in this patch. A lot of people have discussed
this in detail, so I will keep it short.
Zerg does not have enough options for skill expression.
Let's take a moment to look at other games similar to Zerg Hex
(asymmetric games) such as Kerrigan Survival, Probes vs Zealot,
Galaxy Vampirism, etc. In these games, the smaller team
(Zerg/Zealot/Vampires) is always the side that has to be
proactive. They have to use their abilities, micro, get map
control, etc. In Zerg Hex, it's supposed to be somewhat similar
(you need to use your tools to stop Terrans from hard ecoing,
hitting their power spike, and killing you), but Zerg simply
doesn't have the tools to do this. The game isn't the Zerg's
game to win, it's the Terran's game to lose.
This is one of the reasons I feel so many players used Roaches
last patch, and are complaining so much after they've been
nerfed to a more manageable state. Roaches were one of the only
methods Zerg had to actually be proactive and break Terrans
early without requiring coordination/economy/terrans screwing
up. Never mind that Roaches kneecapped their economy and
basically functioned as an all in, it let Zerg players feel like
there was something they could actually do.
If we look at the current patch (or even last patch), there are
only 3 real ways Zerg can show their skill. The first is by
building units/spawners and researching upgrades to counter what
the terran is doing. The second is strikeling ball/micro early.
The third is mass infestor transfuse to deny pushes. Aside from
that, there really isn't too much that differentiates a top tier
zerg from a mid tier one.
This leads to gameplay feeling rather stale. I think the last
patch was overall essential for the health of the game, but
there do need to be more changes to improve the game over time.
I see a lot of people on the forum asking for a "Pro" mode, in
my mind that's a terrible idea, there should only be one mode
that everyone should play. The issue is, right now, Zerg simply
doesn't have options to show skill, so raw number/economy buffs
are the only things that could even out the playing field.
Adding new defensive options for Zerg would fix this issue both
in public and private lobbies, since less skilled Zergs simply
won't be able to make use of the available tools, meaning it
will come down to skill.
Proposals
- Rework infestor units (except Torra) to serve a spellcaster
role rather than simply statballs. If needed, increase the spawn
time to fit with the power of the new abilities.
- Replace the second tier of Hatcheries in the Zerg Base with
Lairs, which have a powerful 1/game defensive option. (My first
thought was something similar to Stukov's infest from Co-Op, but
I will leave the ability up to you).
- (Not sure about this idea) Add an upgrade to allow Hydralisks
to morph into Lurkers/Impalers for a heavy cost, or add new
defensive focused units to the Zerg's arsenal to allow better
base defense.
- In order to keep the game more balanced for public games, nerf
or remove capacity upgrades on Slowlings/Creepers/Tanklings/etc.
to prevent Zerg from focusing a single player from the start of
the game, due to the new defensive options helping defend more
from them.
- Once these new options are in game, add a cost to transfuse to
prevent unbeatable infestor walls at big spines.
The important thing is to make sure these options require micro
from the Zerg player (cannot be left on autocast/afk), are
purely defensive (help defending against good terrans, not used
to crush noobs like old Roaches), and have adequate counterplay
from Terran. All of these options should be easy to counter if
the Terran player has the skill to do so. You also should be
required to prepare them in advance, similar to how infestors
work now. You shouldn't be able to just use them at a moment's
notice, it should take map awareness and skill to use.
As always, thank you for all your hard work on the game WMaster,
and hope everyone is enjoying the holidays.
#Post#: 1127--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: Avion Date: December 3, 2020, 7:28 am
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Hi Statistics,
great post overall and i think you're addressing an important
issue. First of all, thanks a ton wmaster, i really feel this
patch was a huge step in the right direction. I'm really
enjoying it, the changes you made were clearly well thought out
and considerate.
On to your argument: I agree to some extent with what you're
saying about zerg not being able to express their skill enough,
though i feel the root of the problem is a different one that
isn't so much about options. What you're addressing here i
believe has to do with a perceived weakness of zerg once terran
has established a base and decent macro, going into midgame.
(outer circle starting to get cleaned, big spines starting to
get threatened)
It seems at this stage that whatever zerg does (micro etc) has
close to zero effect on any terran that has a decent stack, let
alone several. (this is what roaches were doing to some extent
in the previous patch)
Before resorting to adding new units to adjust the balance
during that stage though, i'd suggest "speeding" up zerg
slightly by adjusting supply cost progression. I believe this
would result in zerg automatically gaining more options, because
of a general potential increase in unit count at that stage and
less necessity of putting everything into macro to keep up.
It would delay terran further due to more pressure allowing more
time for zerg to transition into higher tech/having the extra
eco for hydras earlier for defense, or sipmly massing more
units, trying to find the perfect spot to tech up while keeping
terrans in check.
I would rather see such an adjustment first and see how it
changes the overall tune of the game than trying to add some new
balance with units to be honest, as i'm worried that would shift
the focus from the overall strategic layer too much to using
these units, especially for weaker players, thus having the
opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.
Overall this would crank up the doomsday counter for terran
somewhat and punish idleness from their side even further,
especially when experiencing low focus. It also allows to weaken
the effect of very strong players better, as they will
experience a heavier focus earlier, forcing them to go more
unit/generator heavy instead of fully macroing longer.
Once we see how that affects the overall game, i'd say you can
consider adding more options for zerg to defend if it still
feels like there's too few options.
I have to somewhat disagree on your point that there isn't much
to distinguish a top zerg from a low skill zerg though in the
current meta, at it's core the game is highly strategic, hitting
the right timings, transitioning at the right time, being FASTER
with everything you do, these things make all the difference.
Midgame is better fixed by adjusting the macro curves, rather
than by adding units to make up for one side being too powerful.
Options wise such an ajdustment opens up a lot of yet unexplored
options for zerg, because they get more leeway eco wise.
Possibly earlier hydra attacks (which may later be used for
defense as well), spreading creep etc.
Please don't see this post as me being opposed to your proposed
changes generally, i just feel the primary issue that should be
adressed is a different one meta wise and only once that is
adjusted should we look at additional options and see what might
be necessary or not in the end.
Kind regards to all,
Avion
#Post#: 1129--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 3, 2020, 8:59 am
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Agreed. Even I, a low level platinum player at best, was able
to rek Najdorf when he was zerg. Terran is so OP that terrans
can defeat players who are multiple skill levels above them.
Zerg needs a buff, and I like both suggestions in this thread,
which are oriented toward late game buffs. Maybe at a certain
point, say when Armor 4 is researched, zerg supply costs become
cheaper.
#Post#: 1132--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: Speed Date: December 3, 2020, 10:06 am
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Agreed. Even I, a mid level diamond player while massing
marines without upgrades, was able to rek Najdorf + SpaceBalls
when they were terran. Zerg is so OP that zerg can defeat
players who are multiple skill levels above them. Terran needs
a buff, and I like both suggestions in this thread, which are
oriented toward late game buffs. Maybe at a certain point, say
when advanced build is researched, terran upgrade costs become
cheaper.
#Post#: 1133--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 3, 2020, 11:18 am
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You lose all credibility when you pretend that zerg has a chance
against 3 good terrans.
#Post#: 1134--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: Speed Date: December 3, 2020, 11:20 am
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[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=122.msg1133#msg1133
date=1607015906]
You lose all credibility when you pretend that zerg has a chance
against 3 good terrans.
[/quote]
Read your first comment, then my comment. Slowly. Maybe several
times.
#Post#: 1136--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: ZergTriumph Date: December 3, 2020, 11:51 am
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[quote author=<heXnab>Speed link=topic=122.msg1134#msg1134
date=1607016041]
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=122.msg1133#msg1133
date=1607015906]
You lose all credibility when you pretend that zerg has a chance
against 3 good terrans.
[/quote]
Read your first comment, then my comment. Slowly. Maybe several
times.
[/quote]
You're just a condescending asshole who insults everyone who
disagrees with him.
#Post#: 1137--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: Speed Date: December 3, 2020, 12:03 pm
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LUL
#Post#: 1138--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: Avion Date: December 3, 2020, 1:50 pm
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While speed is applying his signature cheekiness to the
discussion as expected, i have to say that he does have a point.
People seem to highly overestimate zerg's "weakness" in the
current meta. The fact is that while i do agree they should be
buffed somewhat, it's nowhere near as bad as some people make it
out to be.
I don't know the game you're referring to, but if najdorf was
playing with a noob, that would be an entirely different story.
I'd be happy to invite you +2 other terrans of your choosing to
a round while speed and me (or someone else who is actually good
as zerg) play against your team.
The fact is, since the last patch i have yet to lose a game as
either terran or zerg.
Just like terran, zerg never has been and shouldn't be an easy
win. you still need to macro well, harass, synergize with your
ally etc. if you do that, the game is by no means easy for
terrans, also if it's 3 decent players.
Just to clarify, me inviting you to set up such a game isn't
meant as trashtalk, but to actually test where things are at and
figuring out better what needs to be done and how much of a buff
zerg might need.
#Post#: 1140--------------------------------------------------
Re: Issue with Zerg
By: Speed Date: December 3, 2020, 2:11 pm
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Demon is good, but knowing Najdorf it's fair to consider they
may have used a bit of a whacky strategy. Without a replay /
Najdorf's take on things I'd abstain basing balance on that.
Hence my cheeky comment (the reaction is golden, was definetely
worth it kek).
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