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#Post#: 152--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 9, 2020, 2:23 am
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"It is possible to have ultras around 15 min with approximatly
3K income for each zergs (6K income together) if you use the
"sharing money strat". (kinda a secret advanced strat :3 ask me
for details!!!!)"
Was a while since I went full eco build as pressure one simply
works better so I am not 100% sure but still quite confident u
can not get 6k shared eco on 15min even with money sharing (or
just playing solo) unless u upgrade like no spawenrs and maybe
even go for early striks, good luck slowing any half good terran
with it by more then maybe 1 min
"If you remove Chems and Firebats, you can still do:
-push reapers (for new players)
-push trooper (not the best but possible)
-push marines t1 (vets are way too bad)"
This is what terran can do if you remove chems yes, but u are
forgetting what zerg can do, that being simply making like 10
festors per big spine, not caring at all about killing his eco
for 3 min becouse no terran will ever outeco him anyway and hold
forever
"-Ion canon (Ion canon is really a good thing as an ultimate
trump card if everything else failed, and yeah i like a "bunker"
tech like this even if i'm from heXnab because Ion canon has a
clear purpose and is a clever technology!!!)
-You can also bunker and play a support build to supply energy
to your pushing mate !!!! (this doesn't exist anymore because of
Firebats)."
Bunker without chem, now thats interesting idea, we already have
quite a bit of players who try it, they usualy dont make it past
1 torra
"-waiting t3 marines (if you like to push late). If you think
about it, T3 marines should be the actual Firebats^^ doesn't it
make more senses ? Sadly right now Firebats are stronger than T3
marines and cost less LOL."
Can u please explain why fbs are stronger than t3? becouse I can
hold multiple torras, maybe even omaga with t3 and have yet to
achive such a thing with fbs, also t3 do not die to striklings
with 5 dmg ups and 3 festors to tank big spine for a bit
"-going t3 and try to push (suicidal way if only 1 or 2 Terrans
do that)
-going ion (safest and strongest way, you only need 2/3 Terrans
doing that to 100% win)"
Thats just playing with numbers and in such obvious way too...
I can very well say this
-going t3 and try to push(strongest way, you only need 3 terrans
doing it, maybe even 2 to 100% win
-going ion (suicidal way if only 1 or 2 terrans do that, unless
zerg got totaly cripled earlier u need at least 3 or u will not
have enough time to kill hives before torras/omegas come
We both know there is MASIVE difference between 1-2 terrans
doing something and 2-3, do not pretend otherwise
"T1 should be able to contest roaches at least and start to be
weak against primals."
So first counter to t1 unit avaliable for terran from start
should be t3 unit locked behind 4+k armor upgrade...ok
Also roaches do not counter t3
#Post#: 153--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 9, 2020, 3:18 am
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--- Quote ---
> This is what terran can do if you remove chems yes, but u are
forgetting what zerg can do, that being simply making like 10
festors per big spine, not caring at all about killing his eco
for 3 min becouse no terran will ever outeco him anyway and hold
forever
--- End Quote ---
chronologicwise if we go back to 2.9 (one patch before omega and
all the other poop got added) there was no transfuse because it
got added 3.5. it would be more than dumb to go back to that
stage but leave transfuse. before 3.x time ways to deny terran
push was unitmicro not just rally to get every second you can
get, burrow firelings to eat pushed and hydras. that was enough
for 2 years and i dont see why it shouldnt work anymore so dont
say there are no counters to pushes. the thing is unlike
transfuse controlgroup infestors and rapidfire heal it took
skill before and not just luck and fast click. if firelings were
yolo'd in they simply die doing nothing. it needs extensive
knowledge and timing.
--- Quote ---
> Also roaches do not counter t3
--- End Quote ---
they do since tar rush gives meatbonus to drain energy. dont
say conservation L3 now cause you know why
--- Quote ---
> Can u please explain why fbs are stronger than t3? becouse I
can hold multiple torras, maybe even omaga with t3 and have yet
to achive such a thing with fbs, also t3 do not die to
striklings with 5 dmg ups and 3 festors to tank big spine for a
bit
--- End Quote ---
i agree with that one... T1 < T2 < FB < T3 < Italis imo
--- Quote ---
> -going t3 and try to push (suicidal way if only 1 or 2 Terrans
do that)
--- End Quote ---
guess why only 1-2 terrans do that these days....
--- Quote ---
> "T1 should be able to contest roaches at least and start to be
weak against primals."
--- End Quote ---
i dont understand that. T1 can push into medio amount of
roaches just fine until tar rush comes into play. deflective
gives you some more minutes.
#Post#: 155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 9, 2020, 4:40 am
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--- Quote from: RickSanchez link ---
>
>
> [quote]"T1 should be able to contest roaches at least and
start to be weak against primals."
--- End Quote ---
i dont understand that. T1 can push into medio amount of roaches
just fine until tar rush comes into play. deflective gives you
some more minutes.
[/quote]
I kinda messed up on this one. I wanted to say that Roaches and
Primals should be the same unit x) they have the same
purpose(stop t1 push). Buffing one will make the other disapear
and vice versa. There are too much tiers as Zerg in my opinion.
--- Quote from: RickSanchez link ---
>
>
> [quote]Can u please explain why fbs are stronger than t3?
becouse I can hold multiple torras, maybe even omaga with t3 and
have yet to achive such a thing with fbs, also t3 do not die to
striklings with 5 dmg ups and 3 festors to tank big spine for a
bit
--- End Quote ---
i agree with that one... T1 < T2 < FB < T3 < Italis imo
[/quote]
It is all about the timing you can use them.
Sure in late game a good T3 marine ball will be stronger. BUT
you can have a pretty huge Firebat ball around 20 min, a timing
that, even with the best eco, will not allow you to have more
than 6 7 t3 marines with no upgrades...
You will just end the game with the Firebats and never make T3
so yeah, even if you can produce some super t3 elites, what is
the point if the game is over before ?
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
>
>
> This is what terran can do if you remove chems yes, but u are
forgetting what zerg can do, that being simply making like 10
festors per big spine, not caring at all about killing his eco
for 3 min becouse no terran will ever outeco him anyway and hold
forever
>
--- End Quote ---
If the Zerg is going for 10 festors per big spine before 13-15
min his eco is fucked and the game is free.
By the way you don't need chem plant to outeco as a Terran...
Minerals are your main bank.
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
>
> Bunker without chem, now thats interesting idea, we already
have quite a bit of players who try it, they usualy dont make it
past 1 torra
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Every old player here can tell you that there was bunkers way
before chemical plants x) and it worked.
Now with all the patches it is clear that if you remove chem
plant, Terran will not be able to play the same kind of bunker.
Once again what should be a bunker ? It should be the ultimate
trump card after everything failed, with ion canon as the main
weapon.
BUT you shouldn't be able to survive a long time. That is the
main problem of bunker.
Right now how does it work for terran ? They push without try
harding because they know that if Zerg start to be dangerous
they can just go back inside a bunker and still win easily with
ion. Why should they risk to push ? they don't need it^^
Omegalisk was made to stop the bunker strat (Toralisk too) but
as you can see it totaly failed.
The purpose of toralisk or omegalisk is failed because Terrans
are able to kill them.
Why can terran kill Omegalisk ?
Because Terrans can spam ion canon and Chem plant allow them to
max their wall way too fast.
#Post#: 186--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: GrumpyKitten
Date: November 10, 2020, 1:21 pm
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--- Quote from: Mett Gaming link ---
>
> T1 Marines deal 4-5 dmg with dmg_up and in armory so that is
2-3 dmg to roaches. Roach has 90hp so it takes 30-45 shots to
kill.
> that translates to 30-45 energy. Conservation 1 halves that to
15-22,5.
> T2 Marines deal 7-8 dmg which is 5-6 dmg to roaches. It takes
them 12-18 shots or 24-36 energy. Conservation 1 reduces that by
a third so it's 16-24 energy.
>
> Yes shattering is a thing. Add 1 dmg to T1 and T2 because if
I'm correct armor still applies to that so they both deal 0.5
per shot, conservation etc.:
> T1: 11,25-15 Energy/Roach
> T2: 13,3-16 Energy/Roach
> first value is with armory buff
>
> Conclusion: for tripple the cost of the marines you get about
the same results and Mett gets another idea for a video.
>
> The pleasure was mine.
>
--- End Quote ---
Math of course checks out, and it is a good point that energy
wise it is not worth it.
However energy does not translate into killing power. Your
calculations only implicate defense while we all argue that
turtling / passive terrans are problem in the game.
Disclaimer: getting date from Wiki, not sure if everything is up
to date.
So let's take a pushing scenario:
T1 does 4 dmg with penetrating. That is 2 dmg / shot to roach.
That is 45 shot.
T2 does 7 dmg with penetrating. that is 5 dmg / shot to roach
That is 18 shot.
This means in theory 18 T2 marine 1 shot a roach (let's say no
tars). While T1 45 T1 needs to 1 shot a roach.
And this is an ideal scenario: everyone is hitting it the same
time, and no other units in range. 45 T1 marine will never shoot
at the same time on the same target, unless it is really close
to marine bubble.
Where i wanna go with this is: DPS matters, because zerg units
are melee (mostly :) ). The more time it takes to kill a unit,
the next one will be more closer.
Tried a couple of things in practice mode, i could make a excel
spreadsheet with results, make it cool and everything, but most
of you know these from experience.
Just going with the most interesting results i had:
45 T1 marine: shattering + penetrating vs roach with tar
upgrades. No attack, no movement on zerg.
2-4 marines dying to 12 roach
24 roaches (2 supply of roach) completely eliminated 45 t1
marine with only tar upgrades.
A more applicable version:
Zerg lvl 5 attack + movement 1 vs shattering + penetrating:
90 T1 ->62-70 remaining (they die to a 2nd wave)
45 T2 -> 40-42 remaining
I mean there are a lot of combinations that i could simulate,
and make a clear data from it if i'd care or be a nerd i would
do it.
These scenarios would simulate attacking (no armory, walls):
just a blob agains another one. Ofc you can micro, and get
better results. But also without any other units from zerg keep
in mind. BUUUUT i also did not use overcharge (nor bubble). So
yeah a lot of possibilities.
The point is: even if Speed acts like T2 marine is useless and
"desperate move", those units are legit.
I give you that with conversation lvl 1 T1 is more energy
friendly but Conv is weighted as you all know. Conv 1 have MUCH
less effect on T2.
And it is surprising for me how little the difference in energy
/ roach kill actually. Add this to the extra dmg that T2 has and
on paper T2 is really strong.
On paper. Unfortunately.
In reality you need a lot of eco to get the upgrades, and the
number of vet marines to have em in effective numbers.
Long story to short: Vets are OK, but needs buff. And i think
the balancing should be around price. Like: 50 less gas for the
T2 weapons, and cheaper in minerals / units like 40 instead of
45. Conversation lvl2 cheaper too. MAYBE i would even add +1 dmg
too. After a lot of testing. Maybe.
#Post#: 188--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: GrumpyKitten
Date: November 10, 2020, 1:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
>
> Every old player here can tell you that there was bunkers way
before chemical plants x) and it worked.
> Now with all the patches it is clear that if you remove chem
plant, Terran will not be able to play the same kind of bunker.
>
> Once again what should be a bunker ? It should be the ultimate
trump card after everything failed, with ion canon as the main
weapon.
> BUT you shouldn't be able to survive a long time. That is the
main problem of bunker.
>
> Right now how does it work for terran ? They push without try
harding because they know that if Zerg start to be dangerous
they can just go back inside a bunker and still win easily with
ion. Why should they risk to push ? they don't need it^^
>
> Omegalisk was made to stop the bunker strat (Toralisk too) but
as you can see it totaly failed.
> The purpose of toralisk or omegalisk is failed because Terrans
are able to kill them.
> Why can terran kill Omegalisk ?
> Because Terrans can spam ion canon and Chem plant allow them
to max their wall way too fast.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is a good point, if zerg has a rough game, and can just
barely break terrans with let's say: with roach-rav timing. You
dont have to be competent terran to go back to HG and turtle, go
for ion with 1 italis defending.
If let's say 4 terrans are on HG and they not retarded (this is
where my theory fails) there is no way zerg can recover and kill
the terrans before ions kill you.
Ofc it depends on the situation and all that, but i really find
it a bad mechanic that a terran can hold HG with 10 attack -
wall arrmor difference. It is just stupid.
If terran gets 2 italis there is no way you break him until
torra + infusing your torra.
If zerg gets to decent eco and starts spawning omega, 4 terrans
can just ion it mostly (if you dont have the energy to infuse
save the egg)
So yeah: HG is waaaaaaaay too safe. Stasis grants you a lot of
time to bunker down even if you were not prepared.
Maybe nerf it like: if you build Yard on HG it looses half of
the dmg reduction? To counteract it late game, terran gets a few
more armor upgrades. But some1 has to do the math on that to be
the same when you max out, i am not against that.
#Post#: 193--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 10, 2020, 3:51 pm
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"If let's say 4 terrans are on HG and they not retarded (this is
where my theory fails) there is no way zerg can recover and kill
the terrans before ions kill you."
Well I would say if there are 4 good terrans then unless both
zergs are extreamly good terran will win no matter what strat
they choose and it has nothing to do with hg
#Post#: 204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 11, 2020, 1:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> Well I would say if there are 4 good terrans then unless both
zergs are extreamly good terran will win no matter what strat
they choose and it has nothing to do with hg
>
--- End Quote ---
in theory, i agree.
in practice, i think there are not enough good players that
really know how to perfect push with t1 to kill 2 perfect Zergs
before they spawn roaches or watever high-tier units.
Then it will become a bunker game which need a rework as said
previously
And, anyway, whatever the number of players, being able to win
in a bunker without taking risks at all should be removed!!!
Furthermore, it is easy for new players to stay on HG and fire
ion so you don't need 4 good players to do that strat x) Why
should they learn how to push early with t1 if they can win
being afk on high ground^^
--- Quote from: GrumpyKitten link ---
>
> So yeah: HG is waaaaaaaay too safe. Stasis grants you a lot of
time to bunker down even if you were not prepared.
>
--- End Quote ---
10000% agreed.
Bunker : High reward, low risks
fast push t1/reapers/trooper : Low reward, High risks
Pliz fix this :)
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