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#Post#: 137--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 8, 2020, 1:02 pm
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--- Quote from: That Strait Smith link ---
>
> So from what I have been seeing is that heXnab people dont
like the current game where there is alot of different tools
terrans can use to win vs old version which only had marines.
>
> Simple solution to this would be to make different modes for
the game. 1 mode would have it so you could not unlock chems and
things they think it does not need. And the other would be like
the game is now where there are many tools to fight zerg, with
changes to the current units/troops eg. hydras and strikelings
doing less to structures vs armored.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not everyone that wants to have marine based play is a hexnab.
I think 2 modes is a bad idea, this isn't some huge game with
545757564674645788 player base, essentially splitting the
community is not gonna do well... have you ever tried hosting a
pre-picked lobby? The only thing in pre-picked is the fact zerg
will premade / there will be a 3+ terran premade, and that is
already enough of an issue to make a lot of players not play XD
If there were 2 modes, 1 would be much less played probably, and
the players that prefer the unpopular version will play the
popular version sometime because they are bored of long waiting
times, but they'll be pretty unhappy cause it's not really what
they want to play, but it's the only thing played.
T1 is just how the game works. Terran shouldn't have tools to
overcome eco zerg, but sadly they currently do (damn cow +
chemical + firebat spam lol)
Have you ever played a terran that ions you at 25min and
immediately follows up with a 70 firebat push? It's not very
cool, luckily I'll never play against that terran cause it's
myself, but any hexnab could easily do it^^ It's really not how
the game is supposed to work. Firebat simply ignores all micro
and all energy management, which is what makes this map so
unique and challenging to play.
You all just want to play your lazy 40apm firebat BS... and you
say it's OP and needs to be balanced, but deep down you just
hope it will get a small nerf, but will still allow you to
effortlessly win your games. There's enough lazy games out
there... try playing protoss on 1v1 ladder, I think you might
like it.
If firebat was deleted, along with italis and chemical,
ultralisk would be meta again, zerg can build ultralisk in
~15minutes when focusing on eco... this is before most players
really develop lethal potential with T1, so while you all
complain about T1 not having a counter (or at least ZergTriumph
is), removing the stupid things in terran's arsenal would
actually allow zerg to tech into an extremely lethal T1 counter
and win games with it.
But yeah, let's just keep all the options for terran, so zergs
best (rather easiest) option is to mutilate economy in favour of
quickly amassing a roach army...
#Post#: 138--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 8, 2020, 1:07 pm
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I want to agree twice
#Post#: 139--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 8, 2020, 1:29 pm
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speed please be so kind to chill a little with those opinions
how everyone who defends fire bats is 40 apm lazy noob, wmaster
wanted this forum to not get personal and u are making it rly
hard to not say some stonger words
and I also never played vs terran who ioned me on 25 and then
pushed with 70 fbs, but I played against u, if I remeber
corectly last such game was u barly making this your t1 push
only to lose half your rins to 5 festors on big spine and later
dying to infused so again pls come down from this high horse of
yours, u may be good player but if u think other side of this
discussion is pure noob one then u are mistaken
#Post#: 140--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: elon.schools@yahoo.com
Date: November 8, 2020, 2:02 pm
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Speed, I agree with you on that one would be less played.
However, what you and others who played in "the good 'ol days"
where it was just T1 pushes and you only had like 15-20 minutes
to win before zerg just ended everything will effectively shoot
the games growth in the foot. And the reason, because its going
to become the same thing over and over and over again where only
a few people will play it at all and your wait times will soar
to even longer wait times. You will lose the new players who
keep coming in, at that point might as well just stop developing
the game because something added was "overpowered". If chem and
bats get removed because they are op new players would either A:
need to watch all the guides to play B:get taught throughout the
game. which both would pretty much kill any new players from
staying. Removing would also remove over half the current player
base, which would make wait times become quite long, unless you
got together with a group of friends who you play with. In zhex
current state for the skill that the average player has the
current state is honestly not terribly unbalanced. Firebats are
quite a bit too tanky for 15-16(or 18) minutes where they should
start showing up if there is a good zerg, which zerg should have
some ability to help counter them which it does not really have
at that time unless you rush strikelings and +2 attacks. if a
terran is left alone and makes 12-13 minutes firebats, then its
100% the zergs fault for not hitting them once. to make 12-13
minute firebats you have to sacrifice almost all your defense,
just a little pressure and they will break or have to build more
units which stops early firebats.
On the topic of chems, I do think they are powerful but they
are also expensive to get, they cost 800 min and 700
gas(counting tech). The current output of them are
2.5/5(output/seconds)[30/minute] per a square. do they need a
nerf? yes, if you increase theirs size to a 3x3
(1.11.../5)[13.3.../minute] that would limit how many can be
built in base without shooting your min income in the foot. This
would put them to about 4 chems in base, which would also knock
down their min income by 5 farms as well limiting their eco
potential rather than making like +6 in base. just by increasing
their size you can effectively limit their output per a square
by over half. Now if you decreased their production, by every 1
gas per 5 sec that you drop it they lose 12 gas per a minute
which is at current base 120/minute. either of these could drop
chems to being less useful then thay are currently. As of now
you have to wait for about 1 2/3 minutes before the chem pays
off its gas cost.
As for getting ultras in ~15 minutes, I dont think thats
possible unless terrans leave zerg alone and even if zerg did
get them at that time their eco would be garbage. most people
are just getting roaches at ~15 minutes and any who make roaches
at 12 just dont have much eco.
on to my opinion of T1 marines. T1 is most cost effective per
damage and energy consumption, however there comes a point you
cant stack any more T1 marines into you armory buff range and
then they become meals for roaches and bigger units. This is the
point you should start looking to go for higher tier of marines.
As for pushing with them, due to infestors having transfuse
now(heard from an older player about them not having it before)
a good zerg wont lose his big spines because you came at him
with T1 marines. I have seen 20 bubbled T3 marines die to a big
spine because the person had enough infestors to keep it healed.
With T 1 doing alot less damage than T3 the zerg will have
plenty of time to keep it alive killing all your marines you
sent out. At this point you need a lot of coordination from your
team to even take 1 big spine. with needing to kill atleast 3
big spines to kill the zerg this will become impossible to kill
zerg after 20 minutes (if zerg is good) without chems to boost
your gas income for upgrades. The reason for this being a good
zerg wont let you get side gasses without a fight and 90% of the
time will either kill hive early to prevent you from taking
buggo or snipe it so you dont get buggo. then you gas income
caps and your game is over might as well just leave like
RickSanchez does.
and as for my comment "So from what I have been seeing is that
heXnab people dont like the current game where there is alot of
different tools terrans can use to win vs old version which only
had marines." I have yet to see 1 heXnab person say they like
the variety thats currently in the game and to just nerf some
things. but instead all I have seen is them saying to go back to
only T1 pushes and if that does not win then just lose. And yes
I have seen others saying chem and bats are OP but they dont say
removed them, they just say nerf them or make counters to them
for zerg.
#Post#: 141--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 8, 2020, 2:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
This is so wrong. Just so wrong it's horrible.
Completely posting beside my points (I said you can make ultra
if you remove all that crap like firebat and italis, hello????)
and you say ultra is shit... ultra was META before all this
stuff got added...
And then you spout some more non-sense that wasn't really the
topic
Ah, anyways, I'm super tilted right now cause
qwecqrwerwerwtvqrbzn 12/27 terran told I suck xd (he won't be
1/10 of my skill in his entire, hopefully very short, zerg hex
career)
yeah, you can use T2 if you're rich... I did just play a game
where I had to use them... keep in mind I already cleared 2-3
big spines by the time I really got serious T2 numbers
though...^^ Space efficiency is a thing, but if you let zerg get
to the point that they can overpower 50+ T1 you are in a bad
spot (or at least you made zerg convert most their supply, in
which case you're in an acceptable spot, but pushing will be
very hard)
#Post#: 143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 8, 2020, 3:00 pm
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I'll try to not look at forum anymore. We said what we wanted to
say, and as expected, the casuals have a very different...
opinion (hexnab bad, T1 bad lmao)
It's on Wmaster to decide what he wants to do, it should be
pretty clear at this points that veterans and casuals cannot
both be happy...
I don't really care tbh... I'm very unhappy with where zerg hex
is at right now, full of noobies and bad players that cannot
pull their weight (funny, Adam doesn't like those either, nobody
really does, but it's always the other guys who are a failure to
their team) and full of zerg that spam the terran they consider
most dangerous to death... and then they make roach off of 1k-2k
income each and get the upgrades and pushing becomes impossible
and then you walk into a long and boring ion game x)
And then you go on a forum and people want all kinds of stuff,
but please no simplification of the game, because a simple game
cannot be good xd
Even without firebat there's still different things terran can
do... e.g. reaper + shock or just pure shock (I always wanted
to, but never got around to do a 40 shock trooper build that
aims to snipe hive at ~12min)
Whatever, what has been said has been said, changes will come
and we'll see what happens.
One last thing; I really love the auto-rallies as side terran...
it's actually gotten easier to play the first ~20seconds of the
game which is funny... middle is still kind of hard though (the
old issue, too wide, too close to 8 other starting spawners^^)
#Post#: 144--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 8, 2020, 3:07 pm
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and once again - different opinion from yours - must be
casual...
#Post#: 146--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 8, 2020, 10:23 pm
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I will try, as one of the founder of heXnab to make clear some
stuff^^
First, you guys should ignore speed taunts, haha, he is a little
salty. If he offended you, be sure that all heXnab members are
really sorry !!!
Now i will try to answer to the stuff i saw:
--- Quote from: That Strait Smith link ---
>
> As for getting ultras in ~15 minutes, I dont think thats
possible unless terrans leave zerg alone and even if zerg did
get them at that time their eco would be garbage. most people
are just getting roaches at ~15 minutes and any who make roaches
at 12 just dont have much eco."
--- End Quote ---
It is possible to have ultras around 15 min with approximatly 3K
income for each zergs (6K income together) if you use the
"sharing money strat". (kinda a secret advanced strat :3 ask me
for details!!!!)
--- Quote from: That Strait Smith link ---
>
> I have yet to see 1 heXnab person say they like the variety
thats currently in the game and to just nerf some things.
>
--- End Quote ---
Everyone at heXnab like variety of contents !!! Each time
Wmaster did a new patch, i was really happy. But after playing
them for a long time i sadly had to accept that the new stuff
wasn't working :(
Don't misunderstand my point. I want new contents !!!! Most of
the time, i couldn't even play the new units/tech because they
were just less efficient than the already existing stuff.
It is really frustrating to see people enjoy new contents when
you can't have fun with it because you understand how useless it
is.
To resume, before doing new contents we need to fix the game.
Then let's add balanced contents i will LOVE IT !!!!!
Every patch Wmaster did since the Omegalisk patch (before Italis
were added) most of the time added useless stuff. (Italis, chem
plant, firebat, infestor units...) These units/tech don't help
you win the game. They make you loose time thinking you are
doing clever stuff while you forget the point of the game: make
fast damage to the enemy Zerg to stop him from doing economy
because if Zergs have economy, u dead bro haha x)
--- Quote from: That Strait Smith link ---
>
> However, what you and others who played in "the good 'ol days"
where it was just T1 pushes and you only had like 15-20 minutes
to win before zerg just ended everything will effectively shoot
the games growth in the foot. And the reason, because its going
to become the same thing over and over and over again where only
a few people will play it at all and your wait times will soar
to even longer wait times.
>
--- End Quote ---
Zerg hex was popular before all these patches. It wasn't just t1
pushes x)
If you remove Chems and Firebats, you can still do:
-push reapers (for new players)
-push trooper (not the best but possible)
-push marines t1 (vets are way too bad)
-waiting t3 marines (if you like to push late). If you think
about it, T3 marines should be the actual Firebats^^ doesn't it
make more senses ? Sadly right now Firebats are stronger than T3
marines and cost less LOL.
-Ion canon (Ion canon is really a good thing as an ultimate
trump card if everything else failed, and yeah i like a "bunker"
tech like this even if i'm from heXnab because Ion canon has a
clear purpose and is a clever technology!!!)
-You can also bunker and play a support build to supply energy
to your pushing mate !!!! (this doesn't exist anymore because of
Firebats).
--- Quote from: That Strait Smith link ---
>
> on to my opinion of T1 marines. T1 is most cost effective per
damage and energy consumption, however there comes a point you
cant stack any more T1 marines into you armory buff range and
then they become meals for roaches and bigger units. This is the
point you should start looking to go for higher tier of marines.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is one of the problem of this patch i explained previously:
Roaches counter t1, t2 and t3 marines. so the meta right now as
Terrans is to start bunkering as soon as we see Roaches. Then we
have 3 choices:
-going Firebats (easiest and strong way)
-going t3 and try to push (suicidal way if only 1 or 2 Terrans
do that)
-going ion (safest and strongest way, you only need 2/3 Terrans
doing that to 100% win)
T1 should be able to contest roaches at least and start to be
weak against primals.
Why is Roaches stronger than Primals, Ultra and sometimes even
Brutalisks ? Again i already spoke about this previously so you
can return to the start of this thread.
We are not here to say:" make T1 super strong.
We are here to say:" there is a problem with this, this, and
that. Buff/nerf can work but the best way to balance is to
create a purpose for the units with clear strengths and
weaknesses !!!!
#Post#: 148--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: redryn
Date: November 8, 2020, 11:02 pm
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I don't quite understand all the complaints about firebat OP.
Yes it's a strong unit, but is it OP?
If firebat were that OP, why are people still using marines to
push etc? Everyone would be going straight for firebat build.
IMO, the reality is this:
1. Firebat push at 12min is only possible if the zerg is a
newbie and has no idea how to pressure the terran (terran needs
to take 3+1 gas, and spend minimum minerals on defence - if not
they can't afford chem). In which case they deserve to lose.
2. Firebat push at 16min: Either you did ok with your defence
and holding 3(+1) gas (in which case the zerg is losing already)
and you have a fair amount of marines and energy ups (in which
case you might as well push with t1 marines), or you decided to
turtle on 1(+1) gas. If the former - zerg is already losing. If
the latter - why can't you counter it? By 16 min you should have
infestors (who should have been able to feed off the turtle 1+1
gas terran, either having tons of energy OR forcing him to spend
his minerals to defend and therefore delay his firebat push even
further), so you should be able to hold big spines easy + you
should be maxxed on strikelings by expecting this kind of push.
A firebat push is ok to maybe get the nest, but they'll not be
able to break big spine and they will lose everything to
strikelings. A few atk upgrades is sufficient, just to get the
damage past the 10 armor. By 16 min you should have been able to
get spd 1 + 3-5 atk ups. If all the terrans are turtling then
you can go full eco and be even faster - some will probably die
to ravators at t2, infestors can hold big spines vs small fbat
pushes (say up to 10), and you should get a few more atk ups so
fbats can't just ignore units and walk to buildings. A constant
stream of strikelings cleans up fbats extremely fast.
If the complaint is 3 terrans all doing it - well, if 3 terrans
all do marine push you're dead also anyway. Zerg can't beat 3
terrans who are all decent.
I can see some minor tweaks to weaken fbats a bit (say changing
the armor so hydra/strike can kill them easier) or reduction in
their hp by 10-20%, but I don't think they break the game.
#Post#: 150--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 8, 2020, 11:52 pm
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I explained why, u just have to read the thread :)
Defensive build doing more damages than aggressive build with
less risks. And it is easier to transition into bunker/ion canon
game which is cancer x)
Obviously we are speaking about how good players will be able to
abuse it, not how new players will sadly fail the op timings.
reapers will be enough to stop infestor from feeding himself.
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