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#Post#: 110--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 8, 2020, 5:08 am
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--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> [...]
> A veteran without shield tanks 2 big spine hits and it doesn't
change when they have combat shields..
> [...]
>
--- End Quote ---
but it effectivly mitigates the AOE so if you run up the ramp
and you army makes the ball you want a first row of superior
units to tank.
ngl that T1 can do the same with just some more casualities.
#Post#: 111--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 8, 2020, 5:18 am
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You just have to split marines to take big spine and climb ramp
x) The casualties are not big even with only t1 x)
The combat shield is "cute". No big deal to keep it, no big deal
to remove it, i actually don't care at all about this upgrade
xDD.
The only purpose i see for this upgrade is to tank a little more
against infused roaches but as a terran you don't want to face
an infused roach with marines aniway.
Again this is an upgrade to make terran easier for low level
players. You can do more mistake with this upgrade and still
win. I'm ok with it^^(if it was my game i would remove it).
same as deflective(shatter lvl 2), this is an upgrade you
shouldn't be able to make because you will focus on other tech
first. The only way to do it is to have a high average spend
gold number x) which means you are stacking minerals and gases
without using them. This isn't good x)
#Post#: 113--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: ShinraBanshou
Date: November 8, 2020, 6:10 am
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Hi all, I am not a pro nor noob, somewhere between.... so to
speak.
Please look at this discussion from the view of 'Zerg Square' or
Zerg Hex (Square Rules) so to speak. That game added features
that they considered a balance as well, some are good, some are
debatable, some are bad. so lets look into the core changes.
Zerg
The main thing about that game is that it gave the zerg a
defensive unit, evolution chamber to protect 1 side,
firelings/hydras for ambushes, locusts for mobile defenses, This
defensive stance gives good zerg player a chance to fight
against 3 terrans, to rush against 2, while protecting 1, bcoz u
aint getting speed 3 early game to use ur spawner to defend
anyways. Adding a defensive style for zerg, and a microable
ambush unit aside from hydra rushes or infestor will be good for
zerg balance (in terms of player skill balance), that way terran
actually scans b4 attacking, increasing their time to make a
tech lab b4 pushing.
Terran
FB reduced armor, make them structure killer, but bad against
units, maybe make their attack less AoE,or lower dmg against
units, or take more gas to punish mass fbs only. The zerg square
makes fb at 8 armor, and upgradable to be 10 armor.
Additional IMO features that can be debatable
Zerg
1. dont u think armor 3 at 4300 minerals is kinda expensive,
imagine that jump 800>1900>4300>5300....., thats 1 reason why
zerg get themselves stuck at roaches (not much of choice). Give
armor 3 a justifiable reason for that price, maybe roach upgrade
needs armor 3, but armor 3 is 3.2k instead.
2. what if we make ravator armor 3 and infused armor 2 (while
buffing and nerfing them both respectively).
3. roaches and primals have the numbers, ultras falls short,
brutas have the tankiness and dmg, but thicc. so.... make ultras
useful for something? maybe reduce wall armor per hit like
creeper increases dmg.
4. zerg lategame is tough, but why? coz they got the numbers,
and they can eco exponentially, so maybe just make a max spawner
for all spawners like strikelings? lower max spawners as the
tier goes up, ie. armor 1 max 20, except strikes at 30, roach
max 15, primal max 10, ultras max 8, brutas max 5. This way zerg
will use container (make it 1k instead of 500 minerals maybe),
since some zerg players just make extractor and 50+ slowlings,
which lags game too (dont flame ppl with bad CPU).
Terran
1. fix SCV pathing, and structure building animation(if its an
sc2 problem and cant be fixed, then change scv to another unit
like mule or other unit that wont build in a RNG pathing.
2. Make it so defenders can heal structure while moving, just a
minor thing, but u need them to stop to heal, not saying its
CRITICAL, but think about it.
3. make terran gate auto opens at start of game, since u make
zerg auto rally. This will also punish terran who afk at start,
and comes back to game 3 mins just to quit and zerg gets an
advantage in spawners and eco.
4. Make buggo explodable lol (which gives terran +250 minerals?)
for those turtle lategame terrans that have chem plants but no
minerals. some kinda lategame terran rewards for pushing early
game.
5. EXPLODE sheeps and cows,uses 1 minerals to do so. just like
command center, terran needs to be like the dominion lol, so
terran can reduce zerg charity, and maybe so they can be less
bored while charging for ions lol.
Feel free to criticize or even better discuss. Balance works in
many ways, either u change existing ones, or make new ones, so
be open instead of just using the existing units/skills etc.
#Post#: 114--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Creator48
Date: November 8, 2020, 6:14 am
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Long Live the Casual Players!
Fire bats are great, firebats for life, they only lose to siege
tanks in how cool they are, don't change them, just integrate
them into the tech tree. As for the chem plants, just make them
an upgrade building for them. For example you can make firebats
weak at the beginning and make some upgrades for them in there.
Thus prolonging the time the terrans will need to deploy them,
because right now they're sort of Op even to my eyes, but that's
also what I love about them. All you need to do is give Zerg
time to make his own defenses, because to go firebats early the
player will have to sacrifice on other stuff like Eco and
energy, which means less chances for an Ion or Italis, Love
Italis, Italis is great, need more of them, many more of them.
When will Terrans get their own OmegaThor?
Blame Mett for me starting to play Zerg Hex, He's the root of
this Evil ;D
#Post#: 115--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: GrumpyKitten
Date: November 8, 2020, 6:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My 2 cents on the game:
The main thing that i want to emphasize is that it is near
impossible to balance an asymmetrical game. It will always boil
down on individuals skill levels.
Currently i think zerg rarely win vs 2 good terrans on his side,
so 2v4 is mostly a terran win. I'm not going into all the
situations when and who has advantage, yall know this. This was
just a statement.
For terrans i feel like there is a timer with marine pushes
until roaches are up. After that you will need heavy commitment
to upgrade and have enough def + attack power.
And at this point most terrans try to transition to chem plants
just so they can scale better. It is clear that for zerg:
roaches are the key to transition into mid game where he really
scales.
To get T2 marines in an effective manner, you need a really good
eco and still you will be much later than roach timing. You need
the gas for the T2 + the mobile squad traning, + energy + the
actual upgrades. Meanwhile 4 ravators chewing on your 0 walls.
And even when you get T2 marines, it is not that strong: roaches
still a problem to push into. Some buff might be good to them
Also if you survive the first few minutes, and you can get walls
up stable and running, all you need to do is get 3-4 sentry each
side, and you are unbreakable for most of the time.
You can fall back to building 3-6 chems, and walls + more sentry
until you can FB push at 30 min. At least this is what i mostly
do. It's just not worth it to push out and loose time and money
spent on better eco.
If you turtle good, zerg has to ignore you because he is wasting
his time and pressure.
Personally i dont mind chems, and i dont mind more units
contrary to some here. I like the more options and PURPOSE to
units.
On terran almost all units has some value:
-reapers good for players who cant micro batteries, and good to
get into remote locations (side gas destroy)
-shock troopers are good early defense against mass units, can
beam from far also early game if you do the research.
-marine obv.
-tanks are rarely used, but good against creep push, and when
spores hitting your units.
- fb: well yeah
However zerg has a bunch of completely useless random sht:
-tanklings
-beastlings
-primal roach
-ultra
-banelings (however i think it is good against hard turtles, its
just underused)
Mostly zerg just slowling spam, strikes into ~2 supply of roach
+ rav.
The remaining will be stuck on HG what you need a lot of eco to
break before they ion you.
So after this incoherent rant my main points (all
generalization: pls dont nitpick):
-Pushing early is strong, but fall of after roaches -> just
straight turtling is more easy, safe, and rewarding (80fb push
at 30 min)
-chems are fine, but could use some nerf (maybe that other HEX
copy where it is 3x3 and not 2x2)
-fb could get some nerf: i think mostly in the armor department.
maybe less armor early, and have an upgrade for later? maybe.
-T2 marines are weak. All the upgrades needed for it is really
high, and even when you have 40 vets: it is not that strong.
-ZERG HAS A LOT OF USELESS SHT.
-HG def with terran could get some re-thinking. 10 def - attack
difference is still holdable. i'm not sure if that is a good
mechanic.
Most flaws i think could be solved by remodeling zerg units:
1. make something that is a good transition until roaches.
2. nerf roaches: if you have a good unit like point 1. you can
just delay roaches so you can only get them with better eco,
around min 20
this solves the easy early push and the "you cant push into
roach" thing.
3. MAKE PRIMALS GREAT AGAIN
4. MAKE ULTRAS GREAT AGAIN
5. Just delete beastlings. just... yeah.
6. ...
7. PROFIT
#Post#: 116--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 8, 2020, 7:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Terran has a lot of useless shit, too.
-Advanced batteries (sometimes you bank energy in bunker games,
but normal battery can bank it just fine, especially if you're
lacking minerals^^)
-Veterans (desperation unit. Inferior to T1 in pretty much every
regard)
-Elites (for the most part)
-Siege tank (only used to take out spore crawlers and sometimes
infestor, useless otherwise)
-Shock trooper attack speed upgrade (lol)
-Generator upgrade to hold 5k more energy
There's probably more, but I can hardly remember this stuff ^^
And no, I don't want changes to make those units useful / more
useful... Simplify the game, there is too much cookie-cutter
already
#Post#: 117--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 8, 2020, 7:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ShinraBanshou link ---
>
> [...]from the view of [...] Zerg Hex (Square Rules) [...]The
main thing about that game is that it gave the zerg a defensive
unit, evolution chamber to protect 1 side, firelings/hydras for
ambushes, locusts for mobile defenses, This defensive stance
gives good zerg player a chance to fight against 3 terrans, to
rush against 2, while protecting 1, bcoz u aint getting speed 3
early game to use ur spawner to defend anyways. Adding a
defensive style for zerg, and a microable ambush unit aside from
hydra rushes or infestor will be good for zerg balance (in terms
of player skill balance), that way terran actually scans b4
attacking, increasing their time to make a tech lab b4
pushing.[...]
>
--- End Quote ---
the issue with it (and the reason why it rarely get played) is
that a single weak terran kills his whole side without even
trying too hard. In vanilla Hex weak terrans get compensated by
all the more or less broken things.
giving zerg more tools regarding every aspect of the game made
it almost unplayable. consider that please.
#Post#: 119--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 8, 2020, 7:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Creator48 link ---
>
> When will Terrans get their own OmegaThor?
>
--- End Quote ---
They already have it, it is called ion canon...
#Post#: 121--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: GrumpyKitten
Date: November 8, 2020, 8:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> Terran has a lot of useless shit, too.
>
> -Advanced batteries (sometimes you bank energy in bunker
games, but normal battery can bank it just fine, especially if
you're lacking minerals^^)
> -Veterans (desperation unit. Inferior to T1 in pretty much
every regard)
> -Elites (for the most part)
> -Siege tank (only used to take out spore crawlers and
sometimes infestor, useless otherwise)
> -Shock trooper attack speed upgrade (lol)
> -Generator upgrade to hold 5k more energy
>
> There's probably more, but I can hardly remember this stuff ^^
>
> And no, I don't want changes to make those units useful / more
useful... Simplify the game, there is too much cookie-cutter
already
>
--- End Quote ---
While i agree with some of your points,for some i would argue.
Adv batteries good for push and not rare too see them like that.
Also good if you fck up your base layout and cannot get energy
pylon (rare, but happens sometimes). And yes, reserve for
energy. It has its use.
Vet -> better marines for push and killing. I dont see how it is
inferior to T1 marine, would like you to elaborate this tought.
I think you write vets off, cuz roach power spike on zerg is
sooner then vets and mostly kill / force HG terrans. This was
one of my points earlier. You need a lot of vets to deal with
roaches while you push. Thus vets need buff.
Elites -> better vets. has it's own purpose, deals with anything
basically even late game.
Tank has it's use, just as i stated earlier (against close to
base tumors / nexus, and spores sniping your marines)
Shock atk speed up is bad that is without question.
Gen up never used, can only agree.
And i agree: terrans have useless sht, that is nobody using /
rarely used.
But what my point was that HALF of the zerg's stuff is just
unusuable. While terran has some questionable upgrds or units,
that are highly situational (like tanks). With zerg if you build
primals, you just hurt yourself. It eats up supply, and delays
your eco.
You see where i'm going:
terran stuff -> maybe ok, maybe works
zerg stuff -> if you do it, you hurt yourself.
It's just not the same. And i'm not saying this cuz "PLS BUFF
ZRG". I'm just more like: we have stuff, why don't we make them
work?
What i would do, is get rid of tankling or rework it as a gap
filler between tier 1 units and roaches. Make it dependent on
armor 1, make it a useable unit. Nerf roach in a way that you
can get it like 22 min mark. This should make it around vet
timing.
And just make the same thing with all the other units. Basically
HAVE A LINEAR SCALING. Give purpose to zerg units that are not
used or something.
I would like to see the 8-18 minute more balanced, because first
the terrans are really good and zerg has no tools to deal with
them, but as soon as zerg have roaches and ravs it just spikes
to the other direction. I just really dislike that.
And you can see players playing around this power spike too:
most good terrans start to push around 10 min, just to fall back
and transition to chems to survive against roaches. Making the
game a stalemate at best, if they can hold against roach.
Most of the guys here complain about pushing as terran is not
encouraged: i agree. Turtling is much easier. You can get gas
from chems, you dont need extra gases or buggos.
Sentrys are much better defense than vets. Why would anyone risk
getting your pricy T2 marines killed?
It goes back to the same point: roach too strong, or too early.
Maybe give tanklings ranged attack, and more movement speed. Or
the spawner upgrade give them those. Make them Armor 1 unit, and
somehow make it viable. Delay roaches and most of the mid game
is balanced out i think.
Also: somebody earlier made the point that the game should not
be balanced around new players to comfort. I think this is a
really good way of thinking: new player wants easy to execute
method to win.
I think the community has some figures that makes videos on how
to play it. Game should be balanced around good players imput.
#Post#: 122--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 8, 2020, 9:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: GrumpyKitten link ---
> [...]And you can see players playing around this power spike
too: most good terrans start to push around 10 min, just to fall
back and transition to chems to survive against roaches. [...]
--- End Quote ---
that is a lack of courage sadly. t1 marines can push into
roaches just fine except there are like 15 spawnes with tar rush
which is kinda suicide for zerg ecowise.
if terrans would find their balls to keep pushing, we wouldnt
have so much issue with turtles.
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