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#Post#: 82--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 7, 2020, 3:55 pm
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--- Quote from: ZergTriumph link ---
>
> The hexnab players seem to want a one dimensional game
determined solely by terrans' mechanical skill: Terran has to
kill zerg with T1 marines, or die lategame. That might be fun
for players who just want to test their apm, but it isn't fun
for most arcade game players. What is fun is having a variety
of viable strategies for winning, and the opposing team having
counters to those strategies. There is no zerg counter to every
terran player pushing with T1 marines. You may as well just
replace the zerg player with an AI that becomes unbeatable after
35 minutes, and this game would just become a copy of Zerg Wars.
>
> What is fun is having to scout, read your opponent's moves and
formulate a counter on the spot while trying to deceive your
opponent as to what you are doing. That means some combination
of buffing zerg or nerfing terran.
>
--- End Quote ---
We want a simple game. Zerg doesn't have a counter to every
terran going for firebats either. And ACTUALLY if really all
terran go for T1 primal becomes a somewhat viable choice. It
isn't viable right now cause it doesn't do much when terrans
make... oh that's right, firebats x)
Don't confuse simple and straight forward with one dimensional,
because all the cookie-cutter that is in zerg hex right now
makes it stupid hard for new players to even learn the game^^
Scouting in zerg hex really comes down to this; units & armory?
Marine / trooper based aggression, lack of units and full walls?
Firebats. Imho that is very small brain scouting / reading of
opponent^^
Either way I always rush brutalisk to counter 0 skill firebat
relying on the fact that almost nobody can do a scary T1 push
anyways... works most of the time^^ I've heard once upon a time
it was all about getting ultralisk, but that unit is garbage now
xDDD
#Post#: 91--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Avion
Date: November 7, 2020, 5:15 pm
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Hi all!
First of all, after a longer hiatus (due to work reasons) i came
back not too long ago and have played zhex again regularly ever
since. Still loving the game, but as mentioned there is clearly
some issues with it's current state.
I'll try to adress the firebat/strategy issue on a more general
level:
The problem regarding t1 marine pushing vs firebat play isn't
about us heXnabs wanting to reduce options, it's that one of the
options (firebats) is stupidly simple to execute and basically
impossible to counter by zerg unless the terran is noob. The
only explanation why newer players feel firebats aren't
imbalanced is that they have a chance to win with them (or get a
close game) even if they're magnitudes worse than their zerg
counterparts. That's just bad balance. It might make the game
more accessible for newer players, because it gives very
unexperienced/bad players a fighting chance to beat zerg that
are much better than them, but that isn't supposed to happen.
To get to the point, if i play t1 rines and try really hard, i
might do enough damage to zerg to win right away or set myself
and the team up for a fighting chance in the late game,
depending on how well my allies do. THAT'S what's supposed to
happen. Even now t1 is nowhere near an auto win against
similiarly skilled zerg players. IF however i go for firebats, i
can AFK, have about 40apm instead of the average 150-170 i play
at and still A-move win at the 25 minute mark.
You guys who are arguing chemplant-firebats aren't incredibly OP
just have no clue what it plays like in the hands of a good
player.
Part of the problem is that everything you need for the chem
plant firebat build fits perfectly into a completely defensive
playstyle. you simply don't have to take any risks to make it
work consistently every game.
On that note, i would like to emphasize that i feel any good RTS
game shouldn't be balanced around giving noobs a fighting chance
against far superior opponents. The point is to get better, not
to have the option to phone it in.
if one terran plays 3 times faster than an ally or the zerg
player, that SHOULD mean something.
Similiarly, if you guys think t1 pushing is super easy and one
dimensional, you really don't get the depth of strategy involved
in doing it well. It's not a "build" that doesn't change like
the chemplant firebat thing, where you can literally do the
exact same thing every single time. When playing aggressively
(as should be the aim of at least the early and midgame in my
opinion, however that is executed) you have to continuously
adjust what you're doing based on what zerg does, how they tech
up, macro and switch focus. it'S really dynamic and far from
easy to do.
The balance of zerg hex to me is a constant back and forth,
trying to make life for the opponent more difficult:
-can i macro?
-should i make more units?
-should i tech? should i push?
-when should i transition to something else?
-should i do a weaker push that gives me the option to have a
stronger setup for lategame OR should i try a harder risky push,
to try and do some damage, delaying the zerg and thus giving the
team different options for late game?
this is the core of the strategy for me and it shouldn't be easy
for zerg or terran. there is no such thing as a clear-cut t1
strategy. those questions have to be asked and answered
continuously based on how the game is going, what your allies
are doing and what the opponents are doing. this is not easy to
do well and it shouldn't be. In getting good with this type of
strategy lies the skill of zerg hex to me and the reason i've
really enjoyed this game for such a long time. it's a learning
curve that never really ends, it's always possible to get
better.
The fact we now have the option for even noobs to follow a
simple build and have a low skill game ending option just takes
away from what it is that truly makes this game great and that's
a pity. I'm not entirely opposed to having a unit like firebats
as an option. what i have a problem with is that the strategy to
make use of them requires zero skill and can be performed
without risk pretty much any game. being able to make them
should force you to take risks and/or apply actual game strategy
to be pulled off successfully. Whatever that looks like. Having
the chem plant upgrade tied to having at least a buggo could be
an option, as it would require you to play aggressive early on,
while still giving you the option for a firebat transition, but
at a stage that makes more sense. i'm not sure that would solve
much though to be honest.
Kind regards to all,
Avion
#Post#: 94--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: ZergTriumph
Date: November 7, 2020, 6:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Avion link ---
>
>
>
> Similiarly, if you guys think t1 pushing is super easy and one
dimensional, you really don't get the depth of strategy involved
in doing it well. It's not a "build" that doesn't change like
the chemplant firebat thing, where you can literally do the
exact same thing every single time. When playing aggressively
(as should be the aim of at least the early and midgame in my
opinion, however that is executed) you have to continuously
adjust what you're doing based on what zerg does, how they tech
up, macro and switch focus. it'S really dynamic and far from
easy to do.
> The balance of zerg hex to me is a constant back and forth,
trying to make life for the opponent more difficult:
>
> -can i macro?
> -should i make more units?
> -should i tech? should i push?
> -when should i transition to something else?
> -should i do a weaker push that gives me the option to have a
stronger setup for lategame OR should i try a harder risky push,
to try and do some damage, delaying the zerg and thus giving the
team different options for late game?
>
> this is the core of the strategy for me and it shouldn't be
easy for zerg or terran. there is no such thing as a clear-cut
t1 strategy. those questions have to be asked and answered
continuously based on how the game is going, what your allies
are doing and what the opponents are doing. this is not easy to
do well and it shouldn't be. In getting good with this type of
strategy lies the skill of zerg hex to me and the reason i've
really enjoyed this game for such a long time. it's a learning
curve that never really ends, it's always possible to get
better.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get marine
upgrades and attack, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous marine pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
#Post#: 95--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 7, 2020, 6:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ZergTriumph link ---
> If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get marine
upgrades and attack, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous marine pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
>
--- End Quote ---
back then it was burrow firelings near the bigspines and eat
pushes
also basically that didnt change.. 6 terrans > 2 zerg of equal
skill. always has been like that and always will be. you have
much higher chance that not so good players are joining terran
so it is more or less even with 3 decent terrans, 3 not so good
terrans against 2 good zerg.
"If all 3 terrans" means in a stacked, maybe even private lobby.
not gonna happen in random and if it does no regret leave the
game zerg no chance except terrans fail
#Post#: 96--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 7, 2020, 6:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ZergTriumph link ---
>
> If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get marine
upgrades and attack, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous marine pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
>
--- End Quote ---
If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get massive
economy and firebats, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous firebat pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
#Post#: 97--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: ZergTriumph
Date: November 7, 2020, 7:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> [quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=12.msg94#msg94
date=1604796091]
> If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get marine
upgrades and attack, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous marine pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
>
--- End Quote ---
If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get massive
economy and firebats, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous firebat pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
[/quote]
I'm not defending firebats. I'm just pointing out the lack of
viable strategies for zerg.
#Post#: 98--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Mehaperson
Date: November 7, 2020, 7:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: <heXnab>Speed link ---
>
> [quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=12.msg94#msg94
date=1604796091]
> If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get marine
upgrades and attack, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous marine pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
>
--- End Quote ---
If all 3 terrans aggressively take their gas, get massive
economy and firebats, what is the zerg supposed to do? Zerg
can't keep all 3 terrans from taking gas, and zerg can't defend
against 2 simultaneous firebat pushes. What are the strategy
choices for zerg?
[/quote]
That's why I agree with Mett's Suggestion of switching
hydra/strikelings to deal decreased damage vs structures rather
than armoured, giving zerg an avenue to defend vs firebats on
top of the mentioned armour reduction. Possibly damage reduction
of either a flat damage, attack speed reduction or a combination
of both would work great towards balance at least in my opinion
as well.
With that in mind however, we come back to the whole what's the
point of firebats if marines can already do that but are more
balanced.
Why not let firebats remain actively playing a tank role by
removing the combat shields upgrade for marines? (Don't crucify
me for this)
I'm all for racing against the clock, but im also pro variety as
i'm not a dog and cannot simply enjoy eating the same dog food
everyday to use a metaphor.
I'm also against homogenizing units within a video game, it only
leads to bloated options which ultimately have no effect in game
play, merely aesthetics at that point(before anybody says
marines can do that so why firebats thing again, I addressed
that earlier with removal of combat shield upgrade, im also pro
APM as I was a top 10 diamond player low/medium masters player
during heart of the swarm arguably the most balanced SC2 ladder
has ever been).
Also chem plants are stupidly powerful and should honestly
really be looked at it with a massive decrease in production or
removal all together, there are plenty of gas options (buggos,
side gasses) and Terran players shouldn't be rewarded for
passive play.
#Post#: 99--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 7, 2020, 9:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mehaperson link ---
>
>
> Why not let firebats remain actively playing a tank role by
removing the combat shields upgrade for marines? (Don't crucify
me for this)
>
--- End Quote ---
Combat shields is another useless upgrade that no one use, it
should be removed haha.
I also wanted to be clear that i'm sure that everybody here love
variety of possibilities. But it need to be done in a clever
way.
I don't hate to bunker, it just doesn't make sense right now for
some reason i will try to explain:
Terran tech is easy to understand.
If you want to play aggressive, you make an armory.
If you want to play defensive, you make a Yard.
From these buildings you improve your tech for the purpose you
choose.
If you play defensive with a yard, you will not be able to make
fast damages.
If you play aggressive with an armory, you will be able to make
fast damages.
The problem right now is that if you play defensive with a yard
opening, you will be able to do MORE DAMAGES than an aggressive
build lol.
In what world does it make sense^^
I'm not a tryhard player, i'm a casual one but i played zerg hex
for AGES and have a huge knowledge about it and one of the best
win ratio Terran/Zerg to prove it. I'm not trying to push my
ideas on you guys, i'm just trying to show you how the game
works in this patch so we can then try to find a way to fix it
without breaking the game more.
If i somehow offended some players, i assure you that it wasn't
my purpose at all. Let's all be gentlemen and think together how
to make this game better :)
#Post#: 107--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 8, 2020, 4:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Oayoo link ---
>
> [quote author=Mehaperson link=topic=12.msg98#msg98
date=1604798289]
> Why not let firebats remain actively playing a tank role by
removing the combat shields upgrade for marines? (Don't crucify
me for this)
>
--- End Quote ---
Combat shields is another useless upgrade that no one use, it
should be removed haha.
[...]
[/quote]
first time i disagree there are cases when it is a useful
upgrade. like packed ramp or multiple small spines. if you lack
energy for stasis but stack gas because your "build" is done and
already have deflective like a handful of veterans with shields
do wonders. also it is waay cheaper than fb-tank. (940/830)
compared to (45/453)
the rest is correct tho
#Post#: 109--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 8, 2020, 5:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I get combat shield sometimes... mostly because it's a rather
cheap (200gas) upgrade, but since I rarely even make veterans
it's kinda rare lol (horribly inefficient unit)^^
If I had better macro like Avion, Oayoo or Spectre (those guys
are beyond insane xD) I wouldn't float 200 gas to research
combat shield^^
A veteran without shield tanks 2 big spine hits and it doesn't
change when they have combat shields... I don't think a veteran
should ever take 3 hits, but that would pretty much be the only
good reason to get combat shields, other than poor macro and
floating 200 gas x)
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