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#Post#: 27--------------------------------------------------
Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 6, 2020, 8:21 pm
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I will try to speak about the biggest problems in my opinion
with the current Zerg hex patch.
To resume the game i will first make clear 2 things:
-Terran is strong early and become weak as time goes by.
-Zerg is weak early and become strong as time goes by.
I think this is the core of the game. Terran must win fast
(before 20/25 min) and Zerg must survive until late game to
annihilate the terran.
Now i will explain the main problems:
1:Roaches
Roaches purpose is to delay the t1 marines push. Players use
roaches because they don't have enough money to make better
tech.
Why do they have no money ?
They have no money because they invest all their money into
spawners early game to stop the terran from expanding.
Why do they do that ?
Because they didn't understand that zerg real strength is the
late game and they think that if the terrans are outside, it
means defeat.
Before the patch that strategy wasn't working because roaches
were what they were, a trash unit. Only low lvl zergs were using
them and it was fine.
With the patch, roaches became overpowered resulting in lot of
problems:
-What was a mistake of low lvl players became the meta-game.
-Roaches are actually now stronger than primals, ultra and even
bruts (bruts always were too cost inefficient).
What is the result ? Zergs are now strong early-game, godlike
mid-game, and weak late-game. Primals, ultralisk and bruts are
not played anymore by 99% of players.
Conclusion: The core of the game is broken, Terran must now win
late game with firebats or ion so most of the Terran tech tree
became irrelevant.
2: Firebats.
This unit is out of terran tech tree. To do it, u need nothing
and they are stronger than elites marines lol.
Instead of making marines, armory, energy upgrades, centries,
expand to take gases, take bugo, make armory upgrades like
shatter, push and lot of stuff like that, The player will just
bunker himself, rush the chem plant and wait.
Conclusion: The result is clear, the core of the game is broken.
When the goal of the game is to be aggressive as terran, this
build encourages to be afk.
The most fucked up thing is that this Firebat build is a counter
of Roaches leading to the most sad thing i ever saw in zerg hex:
Terran now is stronger mid/late game than zerg...
To resume everything, right now the game is upside down. I want
to return to the real zerg hex core game: a strong Terran
early/mid and a strong Zerg mid/late.
Will the terran be able to win fast enough ? This is the true
meaning of zerg hex which made me play Thousand of games!!!!
Obviously, there are other minor problems in the games (Italis,
infestor system, infestor units, turrets...) but i will not
speak about them here because i really think Wmaster should
focus first on Firebats and Roaches.
Most of the last patches Wmaster did were encouraging Terrans to
bunker. Each time, i was here trying to tell Wmaster that it
wasn't the right path to go for this game and here i am again
xD. I really think that we need to understand the core of the
game and build the stuff around it :)
I have a perfect exemple of stuff that u could do if you want to
propose a way to give terran more gas(instead of chem plant) and
will keep the core of the game intact : create an upgrade in gas
extractor that need a bugo to be done. This way you encourage
terran to push and u give the possibility to upgrade income
which will make the terran a little stronger mid game.
This kind of stuff is what we need. Always encourage the terran
to fast push, this is the way!!! xD
Sorry for my poor english, i hope i was able to explain my view
of the game.
Post sciptum for Wmaster: Don't be afraid to REMOVE stuff that
doesn't work !
#Post#: 38--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: SpaceBalls
Date: November 7, 2020, 12:42 am
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I 100% agree turtling should be a last ditch effort to try and
help other players push, will terren win fast enough? if not
they should die.
#Post#: 39--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 7, 2020, 1:23 am
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110% agree game is broken atm. buggo for 2nd gas upgrade is a
very very good idea
#Post#: 41--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Mett Gaming
Date: November 7, 2020, 2:20 am
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As someone that played the game the first time in February I
can't relate to everything said by the hexnab guys. I understand
that the game used to be marines only.
Marines only is still a very viable strategy up to the point if
4 terrans do that zerg practically has no chance of stopping it.
But I guess that's how it's supposed to be.
The issue that many people have, myself included, is with the
firebats.
Now I don't feel firebats are nessecarily the worst thing
humanity has ever seen, but in the current implementation they
are too strong. They can come out as early as 12mins have 10
armor and everything that the zerg has will deal minimum dmg to
them. That includes Strikelings and Hydras which both deal
significantly less dmg vs armored. Firebats are the only armored
unit in the game.
I can imagine this dmg reduction was originally meant to be
against buildings so instead of making them deal less dmg vs
armord why not make them do less damage vs structures?
That would enable the zerg to make a couple hydras in the early
game and actually be able to kill those bats. Same with
strikelings, that are already somewhat of a counter, but only
start dealing more than 1 dmg after +2 attack.
I personally like the idea of having different unit compositions
to go for. So my suggestions: change the dmg reduction of hydras
and strikelings to less dmg vs structures and perhaps consider
reducing the armor of fbs from 10 to 8.
Chemplants probably need to be looked at. Perhaps make them 3x3
and give them 8Gas/5s so it takes longer for the terran to max
out walls. (shamelessly stealing hate's idea from zerg square)
To end on something positive: The addition of the income counter
was a great QoL change. I also had plenty of fun playing the
game and making videos about it the past 8months. So not all is
bad :D
#Post#: 42--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 7, 2020, 4:21 am
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One of the possible way we found at heXnab was to remove chem
plant and make the firebats use energy to shoot + tier 2
required. This way, firebats will be incorporated in the tech
tree. The only good purpose of them will be to tank some shots
of the big spine while marines take it.
But in my opinion, the best solution is to remove the chemical
plants and the firebats x)
Problem of the firebats is that they have no purpose. They were
added to the game randomly because why not. u cannot expect
stuff to work like that^^ If you add stuff you need to give it a
usefull purpose.
What is the point of firebat if everything it does is the same
as previous units (marines) ? it is kinda nonsense for me and
only brings trouble.
I don't even talk about the nuclear bomb which is completely
useless and never used (ok, you can troll noob zergs with it and
force Omegalisk to hit them on high ground, this isn't a purpose
xD)
What the problem is right now is just a game design problem i
supose^^
By the way, don't misunderstand my point, this game is the one i
play the most on SC2. I truly love it so all i'm trying to do is
to share my experience to make it even better^^
#Post#: 43--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Speed
Date: November 7, 2020, 4:36 am
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I (heXnab member btw^^) played a full eco rush zerg opener the
last couple months...
I like it a lot and thought, still think, it's very good.
My issue with it grew from something I did myself as terran... I
instantly build walls all around my 3 gas area (only walls, no
gates even...), which, if I was zerg in that game it would lead
to 100% ignore (more dangerous terrans on the map), and I was
100% free in the game... so I was "happily" (not really)
building my economy, got a ~14min chem, kept building cows and
got the farming 1 & farming 2 upgrades, only stopped making cows
once I had 1.1k mineral income / minute, my minerals went into
more chemicals and a little bit into generator (about 15-20
small upgrades + big one)... and once I was happy with chem
plant count and gen lvl I auto casted firebats... then I ioned
at 25 minutes and amoved 70 bats.... no way for zerg to win, 1
terran can outeco you and the hardest part about it is walling
up quickly in the first 2 minutes of the game... it doesn't take
much apm, it doesn't take much (any) multitasking, it doesn't
take much decision making yet it effortlessly wins the game.
Now I'm really thinking about the most efficient way to push a
good terran in... and I hate it for the reason that usually when
I'm terran I get pushed in / pressured a lot... the reward for
being the best terran on a side is to get tortured with mass
units, which is really sad :(
tl;dr while zerg can win most public lobbies, 1 "good" (don't
think execution of a build as easy as this qualifies you as
"good" zerg hex player^^) terran can break your neck... to
prevent this you have to focus a terran that you think / know is
gonna be a big problem... which leads to 1 terran not really
having fun that game, I'm not sure what can even be done about
this, but it's a massive design flaw imo.
#Post#: 46--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 7, 2020, 7:23 am
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as someone who started playing in february/march so after all
fun stuff was added I just do not understand why people have so
much problem with longer games
ended game at 21-26 min with sick eco if zerg left u alone?
whats wrong with that, its zergs fault he gave terran
freebuild...
if nothing else I have problem with idea that game should be
pure race
terran dont kill zerg in 20 min zerg wins? so if u are good
terran with bad team u just lose every time even against only
medicore zerg simply becouse he will spam u off and without
chems u have no way of boosting ur eco up in any reasonable time
and so u die to moron who has 4k eco on 40 min... fun...
and for zerg- now with festor transfuse, tar roach and all this
stuff if u fight medicore terrans that have no idea how to eco
or micro and just make rin ball and smash u can still holdd on
big spines quite reliably and try to force ur way to infused for
example and try to turn game around, it will be hard as hell but
possible...
remove all this and all u have left is rng machine - are terrans
on my side good enough to know how to autocast rins? och well I
quess all I need to do is auto cast rins too and win, are my
teammates bad? och well I guess I lost, may as well leave
and on zerg - are at least some of my terrans not pushing? och
well I just won, no need to worry anymore,dont need to still pay
attention to eco or u die in late game to ions bc u cant break
walls, u can do some random shit just spam the ones that push
and bam win, and if all terrans pushing? then it doesnt matter
if some of them have poor micro or no eco behind, as long as all
of them just make ball of rins and throw them at u, u lose
my main problem with all of this is that u seem to not cosider
fact them most public lobbys are not played good terrans vs good
zergs, its more like maybe 2 good terrnas/ 2-3 decent ones and
1-2 complete trashes which consider idea of making a buble when
pushing big spine some unreachable magic , same goes for zergs -
to find 2 rly good zergs in random lobby? more common than 6
good terrans but still quite rare, if u are good zerg u more
often than not need to deal with teammate that has no idea what
he is doing
and this pure race idea just removes tools from hands of those
rare good players that need to compenstate for their team fuck
ups be it terran or zerg
as terran u cant catch up if zerg slow u enough and ur team dont
pull their weight and as zerg u cant punish people who know what
to do but have no idea how to do it
like I said I didnt play at the time but for me it sounds like
there was no need to be good, all u needed to do was to be
decent and pray
3 only decent players can win every time vs good zerg and other
way around 1 good terran can never win alone even if zerg is
total moron who kills his eco with for exapmle 10 supply of
roach
sounds like truly fun and engaging gameplay
now to not be mistaken I also belive there are some things that
could use some work but I am more inclined to agree with mett-
some small change like changing this dmg reduction on hydra and
striks and not extreme removal of things from game
now if anyone got thru this mess of my english, respect to do u,
I sure have problem with writting such long stuff in it, but I
think I got my point- in environment where most players are bad
and only a few know how to
actualy play this game tools to carry such as chems or special
units are needed so this one person with understanding of the
game can still do something in situation when both his and enemy
team is bad and any unsaid rule as terran wins in 20 min or lose
should never be the case
#Post#: 47--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: RickSanchez
Date: November 7, 2020, 8:14 am
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fyi adam resets his stats every 5 minutes and abuses chem
whenever he can. sure he dont want changes
#Post#: 48--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Adam
Date: November 7, 2020, 9:00 am
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"abuse"
that is another thing that amuses me to no end, this utter
convinction that old way is The Way to play this mode and any
difference from this "right path" is wrong, design flaw or abuse
for ur information I also play zerg as much as terran and yet I
do not find chems to be abused
12 min fire bats from 3 gas is completly zerg fault if terran
pull it off its bc zerg left him totaly alone
16 min fire bats from 1 gas I will admit is annoying but terran
dont rly have much eco to spam them in any big number so any
change like mentioned before change of hydras and striks to not
have half dmg vs armored would be more than enough to deal with
it without killing zerg eco
#Post#: 49--------------------------------------------------
Re: Zerg hex main problems in current patch.
DIR By: Oayoo
Date: November 7, 2020, 9:08 am
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Sadly, you never played older patches x) The game was way
funnier before all these new stupid stuff (chem plant and co).
Having good or bad allies is kinda irrelevant here and will not
change watever the patch, that is not the problem. I was
speaking about the gameplay. Is the game currently fun to play ?
Not really sadly.
Basically, the stronger you are, the less fun you have.
Before firebats, italis, chem and roaches upgrades. Terran
skillcap was way higher. If you were a really good terran with
high apm, u had all the keys to win, good or bad allies. Being
good, expanding fast and pushing fast was rewarded. To get a
nice gas income you HAD to expand, there was no choices !!!! If
you were not good you deserved to loose and that was really
great because the win wasn't easy to get.
(On late game, your goal was to get sneaky gases everywhere on
the map, it was great (WMASTER YOU MUST REMOVE THE UNBREAKABLE
GASES !!!! never understood why you did that)).
To resume, you had no choice but to play aggressive and it was
really nice and addictive to play.
Right now, you don't play zerg hex, you play bunker simulator
with 20 apm into A click firebats. The game is asking you to not
play. So yeah i kinda think there is a problem^^.
How is it fun to wait inside your base during 25 min to do one
push and leave if it doesn't work lol...
The only really good bunker thing is the ion canon as an
ultimate tool to win if everything else failed.
Furthermore, if you are the only one to play aggressive, zergs
will only focus you because they know the other bunker terrans
will not push before 25 min meaning your only counter-play is to
ALT F4.
Zergs, as far as they are concerned, just play "spawners
simulator" into roaches ravator without late game and die to ion
insulting terrans lol. If you like this meta, ok, i'm fine with
your opinion but mine is different!
The game must reward fast push for terran, this is the only way
to make it interesting!!! To allow terran to fast push,
logically, Zerg strength must not be too strong early leading to
the fact i said previously;
Terran must be strong early and Zerg must have a stronger late
game. This is the most perfect state of the game in my opinion.
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