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#Post#: 988--------------------------------------------------
Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: deorai037 Date: November 28, 2020, 11:18 am
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Aside from discussions about Patch 4.0, I wanted to talk a bit
about Zerg, leavers, and hives.
TL;DR:
- solo Zerg should have 60 strykes
- pre-2:10 Terran leaver should make first supply cost 475
(after taking away first supply)
- after hive is killed, Zerg leaver late game shouldn't give
Zerg team supply cost reduction
- also, after hive is killed, for QoL, add button that lets Zerg
auto-transfer money to player with living hive
First off, others have mentioned this, but the fact that a solo
Zerg is limited to only 30 strykelings hurts. Getting to 60
strykelings is generally pretty important to Zerg eco.
Second, having an early Terran leaver is a little too punishing
for Zerg, I think. What I'm pointing to here is the fact that
you lose supply when a Terran leaves before the 2:10 mark. Not
only does your economy shrink by a substantial amount, but your
first supply is just regaining the starting level of supply.
This means that your first real supply upgrade costs 725
minerals, your second real supply upgrade costs 850 minerals,
etc; functionally, an early Terran leaver means a permanent
increase in supply cost for that Zerg of 125 minerals for each
supply. I think that, if there's a Terran leaver, the first
supply upgrade (which, again, is just regaining the starting
level of supply) should only cost 475 minerals, or that the
early leaver system should be readjusted (i.e., you lose the
spire + spawners and have a more severe mineral penalty, but you
keep that first supply).
Third, in the mid/late game, once a hive is killed, Zerg should
not benefit from having one of the Zerg players leave the game.
If Terran players have fought hard and managed to kill one of
the Hives, then the Zerg players shouldn't be able to ignore the
effective loss of supply by having one player leave. As it
stands right now, the optimal play for the Zerg team after one
Hive is dead is for one player to leave outright, because then
the other player gets cheaper/faster supply upgrades. I think
that's kind of whack. It'd make more sense if the player with a
dead Hive is incentivized to stay by removing the cheaper
supplies, and maybe adding an option to auto-transfer minerals
to the other player (so you aren't stuck spamming the "send
minerals" button all day) to allow that Zerg player to focus on
helping out with micro.
#Post#: 989--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: Adam Date: November 28, 2020, 11:30 am
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its 2:15 not 2:10
but other than that yea v early leave is totaly broken
#Post#: 990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: Speed Date: November 28, 2020, 11:35 am
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[quote author=deorai037 link=topic=104.msg988#msg988
date=1606583939]
- after hive is killed, Zerg leaver late game shouldn't give
Zerg team supply cost reduction
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure it doesn't (though I haven't tested... *heads to
practise mode*) Nvm in practise mode supply cost only increases
every 2nd supply... Yeah, that should be changed. If 1 hive is
down, supply cost should increase with every supply up.
#Post#: 991--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: deorai037 Date: November 28, 2020, 12:28 pm
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obviously an meme-level case, but I once had all three Terrans
on my half leave at the same time........ 80 minerals per minute
is not a game ;-; my partner wouldn't even send me money to help
me out
#Post#: 992--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: Speed Date: November 28, 2020, 1:04 pm
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[quote author=deorai037 link=topic=104.msg991#msg991
date=1606588128]
obviously an meme-level case, but I once had all three Terrans
on my half leave at the same time........ 80 minerals per minute
is not a game ;-; my partner wouldn't even send me money to help
me out
[/quote]
80 income is a lot to beat 0 enemies. XD
Nah seriously, that's just fucked up :/
#Post#: 994--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: ZergTriumph Date: November 28, 2020, 3:17 pm
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After a hive dies, the other player should automatically get all
zerg income. It's stupid to make one player have to constantly
send minerals to his teammate. I agree that the zerg supply
cost should not be reduced by the terrans killing a hive. It's
punishing the terrans for playing well.
#Post#: 1001--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: RickSanchez Date: November 28, 2020, 5:04 pm
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[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=104.msg994#msg994
date=1606598250][...]It's punishing the terrans for playing
well.[/quote]
Actually that is quite an edgecase where you can kill one hive
but not the other one. To name it: Ioncannon. At that stage of
the game it doesnt really make a huge difference if you pay 125
less or more. Imo allowing it would just not doublepunish the
remaining zerg, since he already has a dead angle right beside
his hive.
I dont really care if this gets adjusted or not. I am just
trying to say: that particual thingy is not gonna matter too
much and rather not hurts zerg twice instead of punishing
Terrans for playing well. It just tightens the window slightly.
#Post#: 1009--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: deorai037 Date: November 28, 2020, 9:57 pm
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[quote author=RickSanchez link=topic=104.msg1001#msg1001
date=1606604669]
[quote author=ZergTriumph link=topic=104.msg994#msg994
date=1606598250][...]It's punishing the terrans for playing
well.[/quote]
Actually that is quite an edgecase where you can kill one hive
but not the other one. To name it: Ioncannon. At that stage of
the game it doesnt really make a huge difference if you pay 125
less or more. Imo allowing it would just not doublepunish the
remaining zerg, since he already has a dead angle right beside
his hive.
I dont really care if this gets adjusted or not. I am just
trying to say: that particual thingy is not gonna matter too
much and rather not hurts zerg twice instead of punishing
Terrans for playing well. It just tightens the window slightly.
[/quote]
Actually this happens to me a lot, mostly because a lot of times
I'm the only Terran who knows how to aggressively push with t1s
on my half of the map, so a lot of times I end up taking Hive
solo, but then the other Zerg's spawners are close enough to
their own hive (but not the partner's dead hive) to keep my
units back. A lot of non-pro Zerg players just don't expect you
to push down hive with t1s, so they don't react until their
partner's hive is already dead. The ball of marines usually ends
up dying if the other Terrans are potatos who sit on full
generators and don't notice a) the complete and utter lack of
units coming to them (b/c the Zerg is f2ing me), b) the "hey
send me energy/drop a power field so I can take the second hive"
message, c) the ping in middle that demonstrates that one hive
is, in fact, dead now.
Granted, in these cases, I've pretty much already guaranteed a
Terran victory (by that point it's generally possible to squeeze
an ion out of the dumbest of players, or just do the damn ioning
yourself), but there's a lot of cases where only one hive is
dead. By no means is this an edge case.
#Post#: 1015--------------------------------------------------
Re: Side note regarding Zerg, leavers, and hives
By: Speed Date: November 29, 2020, 5:02 am
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[quote author=deorai037 link=topic=104.msg1009#msg1009
date=1606622239]
Actually this happens to me a lot, mostly because a lot of times
I'm the only Terran who knows how to aggressively push with t1s
on my half of the map, so a lot of times I end up taking Hive
solo, but then the other Zerg's spawners are close enough to
their own hive (but not the partner's dead hive) to keep my
units back. A lot of non-pro Zerg players just don't expect you
to push down hive with t1s, so they don't react until their
partner's hive is already dead. The ball of marines usually ends
up dying if the other Terrans are potatos who sit on full
generators and don't notice a) the complete and utter lack of
units coming to them (b/c the Zerg is f2ing me), b) the "hey
send me energy/drop a power field so I can take the second hive"
message, c) the ping in middle that demonstrates that one hive
is, in fact, dead now.
Granted, in these cases, I've pretty much already guaranteed a
Terran victory (by that point it's generally possible to squeeze
an ion out of the dumbest of players, or just do the damn ioning
yourself), but there's a lot of cases where only one hive is
dead. By no means is this an edge case.
[/quote]
Yep. I totally agree with this one. Though support seemingly has
become more common in this new patch, or maybe it just feels
that way, I'm not sure^^ :)
While the hives are very close to each other and no defense in
between, pushes that only take 1 hive before being beat back /
cleaned up do happen every now and then... sure it doesn't
happen that often, but it does happen.
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