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#Post#: 1745--------------------------------------------------
Playing Kitakaze
By: guest48 Date: August 10, 2024, 3:27 pm
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Earlier this evening we played in a ranked game together, and
after the game, we argued in PMs. You asked me to make my
argument in your forum, so here I am.
I have recorded a video of the match, in which I will explain
why I think you have several misconceptions about how this ship
is played. I will also analyze the replay focusing on your
playstyle, ignoring the other participants of the team,
including myself where possible. I will not talk about the other
flank, or flank splitting.
About Kitakaze
Here you can find the wiki of the ship
HTML https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Kitakaze
[quote]Kitakaze has four main gun turrets, each with two guns
for a total of eight 100mm rifles. These guns provide most of
her offensive firepower, especially considering their blistering
three second base reload. This reload can be further lowered by
selecting upgrades and skills — to 2.5 seconds (excluding the
effects of Adrenalin Rush). Normally, a 100mm HE shell would not
be capable of penetrating more than 17mm of armor without the
Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill. However, all Japanese 100mm HE
shells have 30mm base penetration without IFHE, and 37mm with
it. These guns are lethal.
[/quote]
Your ship is classified as a gunship, and has 8x2 (16) guns,
with low cooldown, meaning that it can shoot a hilarious amount
of shells on the enemy ships. If you play with IFHE, you can
penetrate most ships, which results to one of the highest damage
outputs in the game. The torpedoes even though they have one of
the highest damage outputs in the game, are hard to hit, for a
couple of reasons:
- They have a large detectability, which means ships will have a
lot of time to dodge
- They are not slow, but they are not fast either
- In larger distances, they have a very large spread, leading to
fewer hits.
To conclude, each destroyer has a different play style, and
that's the beauty of this game. While some destroyers like
Shimakaze, should focus on providing information, and shooting
torps, Kitakaze has a much different role, while context is
appropriate.
Kitakaze should look for opportunities, finding a ship that is
vulnerable, cannot retreat, ideally pushing, and then set a
smokescreen and do as much damage as it can to it. If the team
is focusing this ship that's even better. This becomes easier in
the context of ranked battles, where the teams are smaller, and
ships are detected without the need of spotting since they are
shooting (or they should) on cooldown, due to circumstances. In
the same context, you can omit going for the cap, or if you have
a Radar ship accompanying you, that might offer an ideal
scenario where the enemy DD is spotted by the radar, and
Kitakaze can overwhelm and kill it with it's extremely high HE
dpm. In other cases, the ideal is to smoke, and burn/dps down
enemy ships that are stuck nose in or pushing. This will give
the numerical advantage to the team, since the DPS is very
stable (while torps are extremely hit-and-miss in general).
The match
HTML https://youtu.be/8g1QR09i7e4
- Starting you ignore the cap, and you go straight for the enemy
flank. Your goal is to send early torps and ambush the enemy
ships, as well as keep them spotted (as you argued in our chat).
This can work, but under certain conditions, and with certain
disadvantages.
- Certain Conditions:
- Enemy Ships do not sport Hydroacoustics
- Enemy DD(s) are not present in the flank
- Disadvantages
- If enemy ships have hydroacoustics, they will detect your
torpedoes in time, and as long as they steam at full speed, or
close to full speed, they will be able to dodge. In the video,
you fire both sets of torps against a Pommern, which has Hydro
(and obviously enabled it because it was spotted early), and it
was cruising at full speed, which negated all the benefits of
your strategy. Furthermore, your torps have a max speed of ~75
knots. If you play a ship with European torpedoes, which can
reach up to 90knots, and you lay your torps in a very specific
manner predicting that they will turn with the first set, then
you might be able to score a couple of hits, but again the
damage is very minimal. Finally, the distance to which you laid
your torps was rather large, which means that the torps had a
big spread, giving enough room for them to dodge
- If there is an enemy DD present in the flank, you will
probably get detected, and get killed, since you will find
yourself 1vs3. You were lucky that this was not the case.
In minute 1 you can see how easy it was for the Pommern to dodge
the torps. He dodged with great ease. So your strategy failed
spectacularly.
After launching your torps, you retreat, negating the benefit of
spotting, which according to you, it was one of your primary
goals. The reason you retreated was to lay a smoke on me, which
is useless since when I fire my guns I get detected at 12+ km.
So you waste time, you negate your spotting advantage, and you
also waste your smoke. So you literally achieved absolutely
nothing so far.
Right after that, you send another set of torps, to a ship that
is retreating, which means that
- Torps will run out before they reach ANY enemy ship
- Since the ship is retreating, in combination with the high
detectability of your torps, means that again your chances of
hitting are close to zero (and zero if you count the fact that
he would be out of range)
Then you start cruising to the other flank, again wasting time,
and achieving absolutely nothing, not even spotting. Then you
decide to come back.
At this moment, we are 8 minutes into the game, and you have
done absolutely nothing to help either flank or to capture any
base, even though B is free from any ship for quite some time.
Then on min 2:52 you decide to lay again another smoke, which as
with the first one, is completely useless for me or anyone since
I am detected due to the firing penalty. In addition, you get
detected by Shroder.
Next, you kill the Shroder, but the reason was the short
distance that you laid your torps, and the fact that he was
forced to be nose into my ship, otherwise I could have killed
him with my AP.
At this point, the game is lost, since:
- The other flank collapsed achieving ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
- Our Mushashi died because he stayed in open water fixated on
Pommern, being burned down without being able to hide and
survive to fight after he heals.
At this moment you are once again at a completely irrelevant
position, away from any ship, or any objective. At this point, B
is free for about 5 minutes, but you didn't even bother to
capture to give us the points advantage. If you could capture
this we had a slim chance of winning, since defending a cap is
always easier than capturing.
Then you keep cruising aimlessly for a while, before you lay a
smoke at full speed, which means that you didn't get any
concealment advantages, and again you laid torps that had
absolutely 0 chance of hitting anyone since Jean Bart was
retreating, and it was already at a maximum distance. At this
point, you decided to shoot with your guns for the first time in
the game. Reasons unknown since the game was thrown by literally
everyone on the team.
#Post#: 1746--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: Chaplain1 Date: August 10, 2024, 3:57 pm
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Thanks for al lthe video work etc, i must read first and reply
soon.
#Post#: 1747--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: Chaplain1 Date: August 10, 2024, 4:09 pm
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[quote author=Wosator link=topic=227.msg1745#msg1745
date=1723321664]
- They have a large detectability, which means ships will have a
lot of time to dodge
- They are not slow, but they are not fast either
- In larger distances, they have a very large spread, leading to
fewer hits.
[/quote]
The torps are 8km torps and they are 76km/h in my setup as you
see i nthe picture and very good in close range torping, but
obviously hydro ships can dodge easily all kind of torps.
But i think it is irrelevant if we call them fast or not fast,
we have other main statements, i try to read them and summarize,
it may take time.
A good short video by the way, shows the battle nicely.
HTML https://imgur.com/5YDfGYR
HTML https://imgur.com/d93obT7
#Post#: 1748--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: guest48 Date: August 10, 2024, 4:14 pm
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Thank you. Please take your time.
I don't know the ship's statistics by heart, but if it's 8km,
instead of 9, that makes my argument even stronger.
By the way, the unit of measurement for the torps is knots,
which means nautical miles per hour. 76 knots translates to
roughly 140km/h.
#Post#: 1749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: Chaplain1 Date: August 10, 2024, 4:25 pm
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[quote author=Wosator link=topic=227.msg1745#msg1745
date=1723321664]
If you play with IFHE, you can penetrate most ships, which
results to one of the highest damage outputs in the game.
[/quote]
As you see i don't use the 3 points IFHE captain skill, see the
picture above.
So it is irrelevant to talk about it at all. Even if one uses
such captain skill then that doesn't make the Haru-line ship
guns best in the game at all, there are ships that gun outgun
always, for example some russian DDs, french DDs, no matter if
Kita has such captain skill or not.
#Post#: 1750--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: guest48 Date: August 10, 2024, 4:41 pm
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[quote]
As you see i don't use the 3 points IFHE captain skill, see the
picture above.
So it is irrelevant to talk about it at all. Even if one uses
such captain skill then that doesn't make the Haru-line ship
guns best in the game at all, there are ships that gun outgun
always, for example some russian DDs, french DDs, no matter if
Kita has such captain skill or not.[/quote]
The fact that you don't use IFHE doesn't make it irrelevant. It
would be irrelevant if you could not use it. Since it is
available, it is relevant, because it means that in a future
build, you can use it, because it produces better results in the
vast majority of scenarios for this ship.
The IFHE skill has to do with penetration. It means that your
shells will not shatter when hitting an armored plate of a ship,
and since Kitakaze has only 100mm guns, it makes it really
relevant, because it geometrically increases the damage output
of small caliber guns.
Furthermore, you have skills (I will not debate if they are the
right ones or not at this point), that point to the direction of
a gunboat, and not a torpedo boat. Yet in the replay, you never
use your guns until the game is over.
#Post#: 1751--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: Chaplain1 Date: August 10, 2024, 5:01 pm
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[quote author=Wosator link=topic=227.msg1745#msg1745
date=1723321664]
At this point, the game is lost, since:
- The other flank collapsed achieving ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
[/quote]
I agree that the game was lost when the other 2 ships died in
the other flank because 2/5 is a big percentage of ships. That
makes irrelevant how our 3 ships flank would perform at all.
You seem to suggest a playstyle for a Kita in such definitely
loosing game. Even if a best playstyle had been chosen or your
suggestions, then that would have perhaps made ca +50k damage to
1 enemy BB and the battle result would be still the same loss.
Also you seem to suggest capping but 1 temporary cap wouldn't
have changed the battle result either. The loss happened because
the team made a team split and smaller splitted grouped died
against a bigger enemy group and somehow very unlucky way.
I think your main point is that it is wise for a Kita to sit in
smoke and shoot. I don't agree with that, i can try to make
later a better clear lsit of arguments why i don't think it is a
good idea. It is a typical Wows commnuity cruiser-minded DD
players style to sit in a smoke and shoot with no spotting and
with often getting torped etc. Even in 5 players MM sitting in
smoke is not for Kita players, and not for most DDs. I will try
to tomorrow write a clear way what i mean.
#Post#: 1752--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: guest48 Date: August 10, 2024, 5:30 pm
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[quote]You seem to suggest a playstyle for a Kita in such
definitely loosing game. Even if a best playstyle had been
chosen or your suggestions, then that would have perhaps made ca
+50k damage to 1 enemy BB and the battle result would be still
the same loss. Also you seem to suggest capping but 1 temporary
cap wouldn't have changed the battle result either. The loss
happened because the team made a team split and smaller splitted
grouped died against a bigger enemy group and somehow very
unlucky way.[/quote]
I have won harder games. Indeed it could be hard to win, but if
you could cap B when you had the chance, we would have the
points advantage making them have to push towards us.
- If you could do your first smoke to dps Pommern, our Mushashi
could survive, since you could dramatically reduce his exposure
to HE shells (from Pommern secondaries).
- If you could use your second smoke to DPS the Shroder, in
combination with my damage, he could be dead in under a minute.
Even at the end, when we were Alaska + Jean Bart vs Us, if you
had capped early when you had the chance, we would have the
points advantage. In that case I could stay near my island and
make them push to the cap. Meanwhile you could have smoked for a
third time, and help me kill Jean Bart, forcing him to turn
away, exposing broadside and what not. Then we would be us vs
the Alaska. In that scenario, victory could be much closer. But
since I saw that you were not helping, I just went forward,
exposed myself to end the game.
[quote]I think your main point is that it is wise for a Kita to
sit in smoke and shoot. I don't agree with that, i can try to
make later a better clear lsit of arguments why i don't think it
is a good idea. It is a typical Wows commnuity cruiser-minded DD
players style to sit in a smoke and shoot with no spotting and
with often getting torped etc. Even in 5 players MM sitting in
smoke is not for Kita players, and not for most DDs. I will try
to tomorrow write a clear way what i mean.[/quote]
It is wise to look for the opportunity to sit in the smoke and
shoot. If you disagree with that, lay your arguments, and
explain to me how cruising around doing absolutely nothing helps
more. I don't care what WoWs community has to say, as long as
you can build an argument against it.
#Post#: 1753--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: Chaplain1 Date: August 11, 2024, 8:30 am
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Meanwhile, can you comment if your radar ship playstyle
including location was good?
If you answer as No plus you mentioned that many other ships
didn't do well, then it seems like everyone including you didn't
to good but you are the only one who critizes others. How would
you comment that?
#Post#: 1754--------------------------------------------------
Re: Playing Kitakaze
By: Chaplain1 Date: August 11, 2024, 9:15 am
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[quote author=Wosator link=topic=227.msg1752#msg1752
date=1723329026]
It is wise to look for the opportunity to sit in the smoke and
shoot. If you disagree with that, lay your arguments
[/quote]
1. One argument is that there are generally bad and good habits
and you just follow them until they are deeply installed. For
example in martial arts people train some movements etc that
often even are not most optimal in some cases. And sitting in
smoke is one such generally bad habit so i aömost never sit in
smoke with DDs, i dont develope such habit.
2. DD sitting in smoke means DD doing a weak cruiser role and
that means a DD role is lost. If DD scouts around it may spot
torps and other ships etc but in smoke as a cruiser it can't do
such DD roles. It is wise to stay in the DDs main role. In my
opinion Dds are scouts, are not cappers, are mainly torpedo
ships, DD hunters. It is against DD role to sit in smoke.
3. it is also dangerous to sit in smoke, for exampel torpedos
can hit such DD and even BBs blind shoot into the smoke, or some
radar/hydro ship reveals the smoke sitter. Haru-line ships have
so bad manuverability that sitting i nsmoke is generally very
risky.
4. sitting in smoke doesn't cause anything special, sometimes
you make +50k damage so while you make with torps the same
amount plus do spotting etc. If you prefer sitting in smoke then
use cruisers. There are specialized Dds that don't have torps at
all, there i understand that they soemtimes sit in smoke but
even they should not sit so often, better they be on the move
and spot things and shoot ifthey feel safe.
i think those are main points, i can't rememeber others righ
now. I think the point 1 is the most important.
About capping topic, i never ever cap at all i nthe beginning, i
have such habit for years. There is no benefit in capping, that
sounds similar to your idea that setting smoke to some cruisers
has almost no benefits.
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