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#Post#: 1666--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 4:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1664#msg1664
date=1707686222]
AT 12KM, LONG TORPEDOS ARE HALF AS EFFECTIVE AS 12KM TORPEDOS
FOR THE IDEAL TARGET.
[/quote]
I pick first that claim. What do you mean there, it sounds like
you say that long torps succeed half times less than little bit
faster ones.
Also you again add some kind of refinement/restriction with the
word "ideal" which sounds far from practical real life.
I don't think that your math and/or conclucion is right even for
ideal theoretical BBs/DDs situations, even then the math would
not show the 2x difference which you express with word "half
times".
But let's ignore the ideal/theoretical impractical ideal rare
situations and say simple: Wows commnuity are wrong in 12km
belief and preference. do you agree?
#Post#: 1667--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 4:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=224.msg1666#msg1666
date=1707688870]
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1664#msg1664
date=1707686222]
AT 12KM, LONG TORPEDOS ARE HALF AS EFFECTIVE AS 12KM TORPEDOS
FOR THE IDEAL TARGET.
[/quote]
I pick first that claim. What do you mean there, it sounds like
you say that long torps succeed half times less than little bit
faster ones.
Also you again add some kind of refinement/restriction with the
word "ideal" which sounds far from practical real life.
I don't think that your math and/or conclucion is right even for
ideal theoretical BBs/DDs situations, even then the math would
not show the 2x difference which you express with word "half
times".
But let's ignore the ideal/theoretical impractical ideal rare
situations and say simple: Wows commnuity are wrong in 12km
belief and preference. do you agree?
[/quote]
Ideal, I mean in the Ideal circumstance that you are firing at
the perfect target, the broadside of the Hannover.
I am making the claim that when shooting at the biggest, slowest
ship in the game, the time difference is SO LARGE that (6
seconds) that EVEN THE SLOWEST, BIGGEST ship in the game has
enough time to mitigate HALF the damage as compared to the
"little bit" faster AND MUCH STEATLTHIER ones.
For more nimble ships, the long range torpedos are MUCH EASIER
to dodge.
I think this is one of the rare times that the WoWs community is
actually right about something. The medium range devastating
strikes are the only way to be effective in a torp boat in
ranked. 1 good strike can change a game.
I think that in current gamestate, because of the ammount of
radars, playing torpedo DD is generally risky. If you want to
be effective, and you have shown nothing that would dispute my
numbers (all you are saying is that you dont belive them, which
just tells me you dont understand them), you need to take risks.
If there is something that you dont understand about my
position, please, ask. And be specific.
#Post#: 1668--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 4:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1667#msg1667
date=1707689929]
EVEN THE SLOWEST, BIGGEST ship in the game has enough time to
mitigate HALF the damage as compared to the "little bit" faster
AND MUCH STEATLTHIER ones.
[/quote]
Now you added a new term Mitigate but theoretical mitigating
option doesn't happen practically so often, or you wantto agin
additionally add refinement "a good BB player" to your claim
which makes your claim true so rarely that we must conclude your
whole claim will be true only near 0% of times.
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1667#msg1667
date=1707689929]
For more nimble ships, the long range torpedos are MUCH EASIER
to dodge.
[/quote]
Dodging requires awareness and reaction time etc, and even DDs
take long range torps in from time to time. Note that the
mentioned "from time to time" term means more than 0% of times,
more, while in 12km torps range we can simplify and say it is
0%. that gives a small advantage to long term torps, but other
smaller and bigger advantages apply too.
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1667#msg1667
date=1707689929]
I think this is one of the rare times that the WoWs community is
actually right about something.
[/quote]
Suprising to hear you say that, it means that you agree that
Wows commnuity is wrong in 90% of things, almost the same what i
say/believe (90% vs 100%, both numbers are basically equal).
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1667#msg1667
date=1707689929]
The medium range devastating strikes are the only way to be
effective in a torp boat in ranked. 1 good strike can change a
game.
[/quote]
I may agree generally about the medium distance torping
statement but i don't see any benefit in doing it with little
bit faster torps.
Also note that you seem to say exactly the same what i suggested
above to be the reason why the community does 12km propaganda,
the illusional devastating strikes sentence above.
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1667#msg1667
date=1707689929]
I think that in current gamestate, because of the ammount of
radars, playing torpedo DD is generally risky.
[/quote]
I may generally agree with that. I would phrase that in Rankeds
it is more effective/optimal to use DDs that are good at close
range torpedo duels where mainly DD guns determine the duel
result, so the torpedo boats are not the best choice, or as you
express "playing torpedo DD is generally risky". Yes, all DDs
are risky, and specially torpedo DDs because the risk to lose a
DD duel is high. But this is not the debate topic here.
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1667#msg1667
date=1707689929]
If you want to be effective, and you have shown nothing that
would dispute my numbers (all you are saying is that you dont
belive them, which just tells me you dont understand them), you
need to take risks.
[/quote]
I disagree with all that sentence and can provide again the
arguments against it.
First of all, your numbers are wrong, for example you have not
responded yet to the "2 times" counter argument above. I doupted
above that 20km torps are 2 times less successfult than little
bit faster ones, and you haven't yet responded to that, if you
fai lto respond then your Numbers are wrong. also it seems that
all your numbers are wrong as i said, i wil lprovide the proof
later. But even if your numbers are true then i have debunked
their role already by saying that your numbers influence only a
very small amount of cases, only let's say 0.4% cases/players
can aagree with your numbers and claims above them. I said al
lthat, that debunkes already your numbers, and already debunks
the whole Wows commnuity who ignores the potentioanlly true 0.4%
aspect but generalizes the 12km torps always as the best choices
no matter of player experiences etc.
There is no value in your numbers, and there is no need for me
to provide any other numbers. I don't have any issues to debunk
any mathematical article or opinion, i debunk it as easily as i
debunked your Electronics articles above. I may go to debunk
your numbers but i don't do it yet because it is enough if i
jsut pick few statements from nubmers and debun kthem, like i
did with the "2x" counter argument.
There is no point to believe that numbers are godly, no, they
are not, so don't think that you are more close to truth becuse
you represent numbers. If you really want we go into your
numbers later, but first let's do major topics first.
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1667#msg1667
date=1707689929]
If there is something that you dont understand about my
position, please, ask. And be specific.
[/quote]
I don't understand why you ignore the question/argument where i
noted that your standpoint has been refined to a very small
about of players. And that means that Wows community aka the
majority is wrong when they do 12km propaganda. Why to ignore
that, just say that you agree.
#Post#: 1669--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 5:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
you fail to see the most important stat, detectability
HTML https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Torpedo_Data
20km => 2.5 km
12km => 1.7 km
8km => 1.8 km
This is the number which has the biggest impact, (much more than
the <10% to ~15% speed difference).
The detectability of the long range torps, how easy they are to
see, is 800 meters more. 800 meters is a lot. It is over 2
Hannovers. And they are slower. Both compound to make them
much, much easier to dodge.
#Post#: 1670--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 5:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Mitigate I mean Dodge, Turn Nose-In.
Again, the reaction time is quantified: 14 SECONDs for 20km
torps. 14 seconds is a lot of time to react. (Almost TWICE as
long as 8 seconds for short range)
Statistically, difference between 90% and 100% is like 0% and
10%, huge difference (one is possible, the other is not)
Again, it is not the speed which is the major factor, but
detectability.
You seem not to understand the numbers. It is simply the
reasoning which come from how ships turn. There is a certain
amount of time a ship needs to turn its rudder, and there is a
time a ship needs to turn. The rudder turning acts like
acceleration for the time the ship needs to turn. This means
that at the beggining (when a player begins to react to
torpedos) the ship will move very little. If the torpedos
strike within these first few seconds (the "death zone"), then
they strike at an almost optimal (broadside) target.
Starting from the moment that the player sees the torpedos
coming, the more time the player has to dodge, the more he will
turn his rudder, the more he will turn. The effect is SQUARED,
because turning rudder takes time, and turning rudder changes
the time it takes for the ship to turn. Its squared on the time
for turning. time * time
#Post#: 1671--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 12, 2024, 3:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Let's do a clear shorter summary of main statements.
1. Mainly we compare 2 torpedo types, long range torps have ca
14 secs spotted/reaction time, the 12km torps ca 8 secs reaction
time.
2. 12km torps lessen DD survivability because requires going
closer to enemies, 20km torps user don't have to take such risks
3. 20km torps impacts bigger area.
For example: from 15 torps, 2 torps may hit a CV from 20km
distance plus additionally 1 torp can hit a DD from 13km range
and plus 1 hit a cruiser from 9km range, in total 4 hits.
4. Wows community aka majority believe that 12km torps are
always a better choice for everyone, and 20km always worse. I
hope you agree with that fact of majority, i really haven't seen
anyone to propagate 20km torps.
5. Your statement is that 12km torps are a better choice only if
the DD player is Good. Or do you also require that a target BB
player must be Bad?
I think i listed now the main arguments above.
If they are correct, then let's try to look them again more
shorter clearer way.
Point 5 makes the point 1 irrelevant because most BB players are
not Good, for them reaction times 8 vs 14 secs don't matter
much, they take damage anyway.
Turning a BB ship nose towards torps may put a BB into a bad
position/direction where enemies can shoot it's broad side.
Reaction/dodging time cannot be used often in maximum amount
because multitasking, the BB awerness would be on aiming a far
another ship or looking at additional other approaches torps, or
at CV planes etc. Sometimes there are obstacles like rocks where
a BB can turn at all, so they can't dodge because of that
either. Such factors make dodging torps difficult and reaction
time length shorter. All those factors make usually a result
that a BB takes torps in.
In Point 2 mentioned DD survivability is more
impactful/important thing than having a lucky rare close range
devatating strikes. And in reality you can see such close range
strikes with slower torps as well.
The reaction times 8 secs and 14 secs both can end with 2
torpedo hits, no matter how Good dodging was done. There is no
guarantee that 8 secs duration lessens to 1 torpedo hitt only,
instead of 2. Devastating strikes happen usually rarely in
Rankeds.
Less risks for a DD is more improtant than potentional few more
torpedo damage by 12km torps.
I add such example from economy sector: it seems that more
suggest less risks and less greed, and suggest just smaller
steps/profits not jackpots. Such example is wise in Wows as
well. If you hit few torps then that is good already and DD
survivability is higher. Risky dev strikes attempts are like the
rare Jackpots in the above example and often the attemt ends
with 0 damage or a DD death.
#Post#: 1674--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 12, 2024, 6:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Dodging time duration is irrelevant in general because the
torpedo rows number 2-3 can't usually be dodged at all, but the
1st row can if a dodger is Good as you say. And 8 seconds don't
give any help there either.
A very strong argument is that 12km short range removes from a
DD so many options compared to a 20km range player. The 12km DD
is just too far from targets and can't use torps at all which is
wasting of time while 20km player can use the battle time more
efficently torping all the time.
I feel that i have answered to all arguments and provided
stronger arguments. Do you agree?
Additionally seems like you narrowed your statement to only very
small set of players/situations. That means you agree that in
generally 20km torps are a better choice, and you agree that
Wows commnuity is wrong therefore.
Yes or no?
#Post#: 1675--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 12, 2024, 6:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have provided quantitative arguments as to why reaction time
is crucial, all you have is that "you dont agree".
I dont agree.
#Post#: 1676--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 12, 2024, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
do you confirm that the 5 points are the mai narguments if to
say so? yes or no?
maybe i forgot some points or maybe you disagree with those 5.
Ca nyou answer to the point 5? Do you mean that your opinion is
only based on Good DD and Good BB players?
As an offtopic, can you say your game account name, someone
asked it from me i nthe game chat.
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=224.msg1671#msg1671
date=1707729748]
Let's do a clear shorter summary of main statements.
1. Mainly we compare 2 torpedo types, long range torps have ca
14 secs spotted/reaction time, the 12km torps ca 8 secs reaction
time.
2. 12km torps lessen DD survivability because requires going
closer to enemies, 20km torps user don't have to take such risks
3. 20km torps impacts bigger area.
For example: from 15 torps, 2 torps may hit a CV from 20km
distance plus additionally 1 torp can hit a DD from 13km range
and plus 1 hit a cruiser from 9km range, in total 4 hits.
4. Wows community aka majority believe that 12km torps are
always a better choice for everyone, and 20km always worse. I
hope you agree with that fact of majority, i really haven't seen
anyone to propagate 20km torps.
5. Your statement is that 12km torps are a better choice only if
the DD player is Good. Or do you also require that a target BB
player must be Bad?
I think i listed now the main arguments above.
If they are correct, then let's try to look them again more
shorter clearer way.
Point 5 makes the point 1 irrelevant because most BB players are
not Good, for them reaction times 8 vs 14 secs don't matter
much, they take damage anyway.
Turning a BB ship nose towards torps may put a BB into a bad
position/direction where enemies can shoot it's broad side.
Reaction/dodging time cannot be used often in maximum amount
because multitasking, the BB awerness would be on aiming a far
another ship or looking at additional other approaches torps, or
at CV planes etc. Sometimes there are obstacles like rocks where
a BB can turn at all, so they can't dodge because of that
either. Such factors make dodging torps difficult and reaction
time length shorter. All those factors make usually a result
that a BB takes torps in.
In Point 2 mentioned DD survivability is more
impactful/important thing than having a lucky rare close range
devatating strikes. And in reality you can see such close range
strikes with slower torps as well.
The reaction times 8 secs and 14 secs both can end with 2
torpedo hits, no matter how Good dodging was done. There is no
guarantee that 8 secs duration lessens to 1 torpedo hitt only,
instead of 2. Devastating strikes happen usually rarely in
Rankeds.
Less risks for a DD is more improtant than potentional few more
torpedo damage by 12km torps.
I add such example from economy sector: it seems that more
suggest less risks and less greed, and suggest just smaller
steps/profits not jackpots. Such example is wise in Wows as
well. If you hit few torps then that is good already and DD
survivability is higher. Risky dev strikes attempts are like the
rare Jackpots in the above example and often the attemt ends
with 0 damage or a DD death.
[/quote]
#Post#: 1677--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 12, 2024, 6:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1675#msg1675
date=1707741737]
I have provided quantitative arguments as to why reaction time
is crucial, all you have is that "you dont agree".
I dont agree.
[/quote]
Everyone agrees that different things have different advantages
and disadvantages. If i compare the advantages then it seems
that 20km torps have better advantages: less risks, more torping
options, and reality really shows that the torpedo rows number
2-3 are often not dodgable at all and the reality is that 2-3
torps go in very often, plus it is totally fine to make safely
2-3 torpedo hits, plus rare devastating close range hits happen
with 20km torps as well.
I don't jsut disagree, i provided a lsit of counterarguments,
plus you seems to narrow your statement to only a very small of
situations.
Reaction time is not cruicial, (DD) surviving is cruicial.
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