DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
wows forum
HTML https://wows.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Debates, Interviews
*****************************************************
#Post#: 1656--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 1:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1653#msg1653
date=1707680787]
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=224.msg1651#msg1651
date=1707679514]
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1646#msg1646
date=1707676418]
(The main point of torpedoes is to do damage) and the one way
(to ensure damage on the enemy) is
[/quote]
... becoming a millionaire 1 important thing is to have fast
internet ...
[/quote]
With the creation of the internet came electronic trading. Very
quickly, this lead to trading strategies reliant on maximally
fast execution of trades.
This, in turn, lead to "Co-location has become a lucrative
business for exchanges, which charge HFT firms millions of
dollars for the privilege of “low latency access.” " - fast, low
latency connections to the stock market are vital for making
money (becoming a millionaire).
More simply - companies pay MILLIONS to have faster internet
access to the stock exchange.
HTML https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/042414/youd-better-know-your-highfrequency-trading-terminology.asp
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_trading
[/quote]
Your those links are offtopic/noise, and i can and will debunk
them now. Usually i prove easily that all links are wrong, you
really don't need any links.
Can we avoid such offtopics and stay in the Wows topic? If you
deny then i decalre you as a looser of the debate because you
ran away to economics.
Where can a debate land if everybody jumps to offtopics al lthe
time? What if i jump from here to math topic and you as a reply
to psychology topic etc etc?
I made jsut an illustrative example of demonstrating that things
have more than 1 way etc. You replied to the example trying to
debunk the example. Well, i can invent another example if you
like then. But i prefer to debunk even your reply and i do it
now next and let's try to avoid such offtpics later.
To debunk your links and copypasted text, i say first that in
most debates we debunk most links and external articles, we even
debunk Wows Wikipedia.
I phrased that "becoming a millionaire 1 important thing is to
have fast internet", so your reply doesnt debunk it because you
didnät debunk it, and generally you can't debunk examples at
all.
You say: With the creation of the internet came electronic
trading.
I say you are wrong, and any articles that say it with you are
wrong. I explain that the concept of electronic means using
electricity and before the internet trading was done via
electrictiy, phones and emails etc. That debunks your copypasted
sentence.
I won't go futher, i jsut repeat that let's stay in the topic, i
just gave an illustrative example from the economy sector, no
need to jump to economy topic.
#Post#: 1657--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 2:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1655#msg1655
date=1707681431]
the inclusion of the human component is irrelevant and it makes
discussion near impossible.
[/quote]
Why irrelevant? The time humans make clicks on the screen makes
the actual reaction time. If theoretical 14 seconds turn into
practical 4 seconds then isn't it more clear to talk about 4
seconds than imaginable 14 seconds? We can of course continue
using the theoretical 14 secs, instead of 4, i don't mind, but
let's not forget that the 14 secs is a so called theoretical,
far from practical reality.
#Post#: 1658--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 2:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Since you are bringing up the messy, non-deal conditions of real
battle.
During a real battle, there is another component, team mates.
Once could, easily, have a DD close to one's self, somewhere
close to the path of the torpedos.
In this situation, we must talk about the likelyhood of someone
other than the target spotting the torpedos, giving the target
extra warning, making them innefective at their primary purpose.
This likelyhood is the likelyhood of an enemy being WITHIN the
DETECTION RADIUS of the torpedos. What does that mean? A circle
around each torpedo, where the torpedo is spotted. Which means
an AREA.
As the area of a circle is pi r^2, we can see that AGAIN, the
effectiveness of a torpedo DECREASES ~ x^2
so the 2.5km detection means a likelyhood coefficient of 6.25
and 1.7 km detection means a likelyhood coefficient of 2.89
Which means that 20km torps are OVER 2 TIMES as likely to be
spotted by a teammate, compared to 12/8 km
The point about becoming a millionaire is completely irrelevant,
and you brought it up, I was simply showing you a way in which
fast internet actually decides about becoming a millionaire, in
the real world.
#Post#: 1659--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 2:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1655#msg1655
date=1707681431]
A very good player will ...
a good player
[/quote]
do you want to shorten the debate topic to only very good
players? Yes or no?
#Post#: 1660--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 2:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=224.msg1659#msg1659
date=1707682150]
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1655#msg1655
date=1707681431]
A very good player will ...
a good player
[/quote]
do you want to shorten the debate topic to only very good
players? Yes or no?
[/quote]
yes.
#Post#: 1661--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 2:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1655#msg1655
date=1707681431]
What is "enough damage"?
[/quote]
A very good question and if i fail to explain clearly or it
becomes an irrelevant term then i admit i made a msitake and
must look into the sentence where i used it, if i repeat too
many msitakes we can decalre me to lose.
But i don't think that such my term is leading to anywhere
wrong.
By Enough i meant getting advantage. For example if 20km torps
land 2-3 torps to 1-2 ships then that is obviously an advantage
and everyone agrees that it is an advantage over enemies to win
a battle because any damage enemies take is an advantage. We can
compare that example of 2-3 landing torps to 12km of 0 landing
torps and a DD dying which is not an advantage but a
disadvantage because your team loses a spotted ship. We don't
have statistics how many torps in average land successfully with
12km and 20 km torps and how many times 12km torp DD got spotted
and died during that. But we may do a practical test to see
that, we both record 10 battles and see how it goes. I say here
my opinion that such test would show that most Shimas use 20km
torps instead of 12km, and 20km torps shooters survive more, and
20km torps cases make more damage to enemies and survive more,
this is my hypothetical opinion but to prove it probably an
experiemnt would convince the best.
By Enough i meant getting advantage. Maybe the better word is
Optimal, Better. Enough is more than 0 dmage and staying alive
more likely, and 12km torp users more likely miss the torps or
die by getting spotted. If you have a better English word
instead of Enough then suggest.
We can exclude that word and ignore it
Compared to 0 dmg or a death even 1 torpedo hit and staying
alive is enough and gives an advantage.
#Post#: 1662--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 2:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1660#msg1660
date=1707682206]
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=224.msg1659#msg1659
date=1707682150]
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1655#msg1655
date=1707681431]
A very good player will ...
a good player
[/quote]
do you want to shorten the debate topic to only very good
players? Yes or no?
[/quote]
yes.
[/quote]
Ok, let's change the debate topic. But for your information,
usually such change of the mind means already your loss (in the
original claim).
It is all fine, let's talk only about so called good players.
In that case i agree that reaction times are shorter, awereness
wider etc.
In such case i first need to ocntinue to read your post futher
from the 1st sentence and reply later.
Of course you know that i could easily debunk the term Good
Player if i wanted and i have done it in our wikipedia, but i am
fine and assume by that a skillful player and will reply.
We talk mainly about torping Primitive Ship types, like Cruisers
and BBs and the new topic is that we assume that those primitive
ship players are skillful so the reaction times are short.
#Post#: 1663--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 3:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Also note that the whole wows community has the same
opinion/mentality about 20km torps which you represent here for
only 0.4% of players aka good players. Wows community all
togehter believe for everyone about 20km torps, not only for the
so called Good players. I have never ever seen anyone saying
that 20km are better and never heard there that 12km are better
for Good players and they are not Good who say that. So, jsut
for your info, that in your Wows commnuity people usually tend
to believe that 12km torps are good for everyone, this is
different from your 2nd refined opinion. My observations show
that.
But let's see if 12km are good to anyone at all. It is more
difficult to prove anything about so called Good players,
because those with high TeamsWR don't seem to dodge torps much
either, 20km lands to them Enough and additionally to others
behind them. Some Good TeamsWR ones dodge and do everything,
some don't, so i am not sure how to determine that Good concept,
the Wikipedia debunks it totally. So i am not sure how to do
such "Good DD players benefit from 12km more than 20km"
argument, or "Good BB players dodge 20km torps more than 12km
torps".
difficult to understand by Good.
My opinion is that Primitive ships are usually so slow in
everything that they can't do anything during the reaction time.
You and me can't see into 10 random high TeamsWR BB players mind
when they notice torps. So, the whole refined topic is not very
doable.
The wider and longer torpedo range the bigger surface they
cover/influence. 12km narrow or wide torps always steal less
awareness time from enemies to react and turn main guns away,
than 20km torps which cover/travel bigger map area and require
potentially more enemies to waste time to react to them or maybe
even change the course or show broad side or turn back or take a
torpedo in etc. Even a beginner player with 20km torps surely
influences enemy BBs at 20km distance and sometimes hit them by
a suprice. So, this argument is a Surface argument that says
that 20km torps, and specially wide torps, influence more, hit
more likely more ships, and beside the Surface argument is the
Survivability argument that more likely a DD with 12km torp
range dies because gets spotted.
Even if a 1 BB player is a Good player then usually msot players
in the MM are not and 20km hits them very liekly. Maybe 1 BB
Good player can dodge, others cannot.
If you agree that most players are not Good, most/majority, then
the smartest is to use 20km wide torps because not-Good BBs
can't dodge much.
Some very simplified examples: in Randoms always just shoot 20km
wide torps and 80% times it hits something whilw 12km torps
would only hit 1 ship if lucky and so called Good.
#Post#: 1664--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 3:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If you think restricting to "good players" changes the argument,
no, it does not. Yes, the reaction time becomes less
significant, but by how much? 50%? Doesnt change the fact that
every second more ~ x^2.
Also this discussion arose in the context of RANKED. This was
the original aim, and original argument, and the whole reason as
to why I am putting in effort when talking to you. If you want
to discuss 20km farming of COW BB's in random battles, then I
will leave as such a discussion is pointless. Sorry for
assuming.
To address "enough damage". You have to keep in mind that teams
are "balanced" i.e. you are competing with another DD, lets say
12km shmima, for your 'advantage'. This means you have to do
more damage than them, otherwise you lose.
Since I had some time to think, here is my whole argument,
summarized. (One point added.)
In the game, torpedoes have 2 and only 2 functions and one sub
function: Doing Damage and Area Denial(sub function forcing the
enemy to manoeuvre).
Doing Damage - Hitting enemy ships in order to reduce their HP
to 0.
Area Denial - By threatening to do damage, the enemy is
unable/unwilling to move into an Area on the map because of the
torpedoes coming their way.
Forcing manoeuvre - making an enemy turn by threatening to do
damage, forcing a manoeuvre which either slows down the enemy
and/or making the enemy expose their broadside to your team,
making them take more damage.
To do damage, 2 stats are important: the raw damage of the
torpedo and the likelyhood of the torpedo to do damage. We
ignore DPM, as that differentiates 8km from 12km, and the
question is between medium range and 20km.
Here, the likelyhood of doing damage is a number which is
DIRECTLY multiplies the raw damage number, and as such is the
deciding factor.
As stated, the likelyhood of the torpedo being spotted scales
proportionally to the torpedo detection radius SQUARED. This
means (hypothetical) reaction time of 1.5 Short = Long means
Long is 1.5*1.5 = 2.25 times less likely to do damage, which
means the potential damage of the torpedo is reduced. This
number is decreased a little by the range, but one must remember
that any extra range increases the likelyhood of the torpedo
being spotted by another enemy and increases the spread (making
the torpedoes easier to dodge and less threatening).
Being spotted by another enemy follows suit, i.e. Short = 1.7,
Long = 2.5 => ShortLikelyhood = 1.7^2 = 2.89, LongLikelyhood =
2.5^2 = 6.25.
So, to summarize this section the Long torpedo is over twice as
likely to be spotted by another enemy.
For dodging, I refer to my image, it shows that an enemy ship
can not dodge (even with perfect reaction time) within the first
1/3rd of its rudder-shift time. Every second that the enemy has
to turn, after, makes the torpedo less effective SQUARED. With
the ships ingame, usually this means the first 6 seconds.
Now, area denial. It is true that torpedoes have a secondary
use, the THREAT of doing damage.
Here, one might argue that the 20km torpedoes are more
effective, but how much more?
Lets compare them to 12km.
Fired in a cone of 6degrees, this means that 20km torpedoes
cover an Area of roughly 21km^2
12km, in turn, only 7.5km^2. As the spacing of the torpedoes at
the end of the area for a single launch is 400m, which means
with a perfect spread 130m, on a broadside Hannover you will
land maximally 2.6 torpedoes, assuming they dont react. As we
showed previously, they have enough time to reduce this number
to ~ 1.3
(remember Hannover length is 350m)
This means, for the ideal target, A Hannover, by switching from
12km to 20 km, all you gain is the ability to (maybe) hit the
BROADSIDE of the biggest ship in the game with 4.2 (ideal, 2.1
real) -> 2.6 (ideal, 1.3 real) torpedoes.
In contrast, because of the decreased time, on the ideal target
under ideal conditions, the 12 km torpedos will hit 4.2 ideal
which is really 4.
(cosine 45degrees vs cosine 12.5 degrees FOR THE BIGGEST,
slowest target (i dont have ushakov so i cant make experiment))
AT 12KM, LONG TORPEDOS ARE HALF AS EFFECTIVE AS 12KM TORPEDOS
FOR THE IDEAL TARGET.
without counting team spotting.
They are only better at long-range-area-denial, because their
damage at 20 km is very low (because of the spread). Also,
beyond 12km, the area denial becomes less and less relevant, AS
THEY ARE SO EASY TO DODGE.
I hope this is concise and clear, tough to re-read in the small
window.
#Post#: 1665--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 3:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I will respond to your every claim, but in random order.
I will answer to the previous about post as well later.
But meanwhile i add an additional counter-argument against 12km
torps:
12km torping range is too risky compared to 13-23km range.
That is because radars have 12km range and because going already
let's say 14km far from approaching primitive ships means very
often a risk of being spotted by enemy advanced ships and no
skills help there because nobody sees unspotted enemy DDs/subs.
The risk of a 12km torper to become spotted is not worth it and
results in the spotted DD to die often.
We talk only about so called skillful DD players but 12km range
is so risky that doesn't care much about skills.
Also 20km range when it enables to torp from more far that 12km
range keeps generally those DDs more often alive because they
don't need to go so close to risks.
In my opinion the community visualises in their mind rare
occasions when in Randoms DDs shoot narrow spreaded from 7-10km
distance torps and land 6 of them and kill an enemy BB. This is
what happens in their mind when the topic of 12 vs 20 km arises.
they just assume that such 7-10km range narrow torps are
probably fast 12km torps and also such rare devastating strikes
makes a good emotion to them and they believe that such kills
are better than just 2-3 torps hits. It is an illusional wishful
thinking. From 7-10km range it doesn't really matter most times
what is the torpedo speed, it will land for Good DD players
always something, no matter of the torpedo speed. This is my
experience.
Even if i play T11 Yamagiri i almost never chose short range
torps, there really is no benefit from them. But in Rankeds the
same goes for 12km range, no benefit.
I believe the whole topic may be mainly about "making a carring
kill or advantageous few damage". And the answer is that more
optimal is that it is wiser to damage enemies slowly an safely
than quickly but riskily.
In your previous posts you seem to emphasize numbers and math a
lot. I am a mathematician and done plenty of number oriented
things like computer programming. For me numbers are not the
source of truth, but i understand them well. We can look your
numbers as well later, i beleive they are wrong, but i already
mentioned they may be wrong because they are far from practical
life. but they seem to be wrong even from theoretical view. It
is irrelevant, becuse what's the difference if you some numbers
are wrong, it doesn't matter, but it would enlight you not to be
obsessed with numbers and details so much. In our Wiki we say
that wows commnuity has an illusion that science is somehow
devine and close to truth, and that teams stats numbers are
scientific and godly etc. Numbers are irrelevant things in my as
a mathematician opinion.
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page