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#Post#: 1646--------------------------------------------------
900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 12:33 pm
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The main point of torpedoes is to do damage and the one way to
ensure damage on the enemy is by making sure that the enemy can
not doge.
The three choices for Shmima are as follows (assuming maximum
perks/modules):
Type93 - 68.3 kts @ 2.5km detc. = 14s react.
Type93 mod. 3 - 73.8 kts @ 1.7km = 8.85s
Type F3 - 83.8 kts @ 1.8km = 8.26s
(formula used from WoWs Wiki:
HTML https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Torpedoes)
This means, for both shorter range torpedo choices, the enemy
has almost 6 seconds less to react to the incoming threat.
6 seconds.
What does 6 (5.15/5.74) seconds mean?
6 seconds is exactly:
- the time it takes Thunderer to fully move his rudder from
Neutral to an Extreme.
- the time it takes for Bayard to turn by 34.2 degrees.
- the time it take for Hannover to move his rudder by Half.
Lets take a closer look at the last example.
By the time that the long range torpedoes have reached the
target, fired under ideal conditions at a broadside, the
Hannover, the biggest ship in the game, has done a roughly 45
degree turn, reducing the targeted surface are by roughly half.
In contrast (because of the lateral acceleration induced by the
linear effect of the rudder on turning
(
HTML https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Maneuvering)
as in the fact
that the majority of the reaction the rudder is changing, as in
the rate of turn has acceleration) the short range, roughly 8
second torpedo reaction time results in an effective turn of
ONLY ABOUT 12.5 degrees.
To summarize the argument above^
Every second that a torpedo is detected REDUCES its
effectiveness non-linearly, a torpedo that is detected twice as
long is FOUR times less effective, as the change of turning
speed with rudder is linear, so the effective change of the
ships direction is ~ x^2 (proportional to).
Hence, to maximize the effectiveness of torpedoes, they must
have the lowest reaction time.
#Post#: 1647--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 12:42 pm
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I believe you already know acceptable debating rules because
your post looks good.
I used to shortly say: be a good lawyer, be a good monk. It
means that behave liek you behave in court, no personal attacks
etc, and behaving liek a monk means that don't feed your
selfishness, try to serve a so called truth or other higher
goal. We try to together debate to see the truth and hope that
it helps the commnuity and lessens the terrorism later i nthe
world- why not such goal.
Shortly main rules:
1. don't ignore arguments/thoughts, reply to all of them.
2. don't do personal attacks like saying that you have more
money, higher TeamsWR etc.
3. avoid noise, no need for pictures, slang, most times we also
have see nthat external links are useless. Just say your
reasning in clear and simple English.
4. many posts in a row is totally fine and usually better,
because longer posts covering many arguments are often difficult
to read.
The topic is that you try to prove that Shimas 12km torps are
better than 20km torps.
I even suggest that we extend the topic and say that faster
shortrange torps are better than longer range torps. But let's
stay on the Shima example at first, because at the moment i
can't remember other such examples. If remember Haru and russian
DDs maybe had such option, but there the torpedo choice is more
extreme, so we can avoid them and stay o nthe Shima example.
I read your post next and wil lreply wit my arguments.
We don't rush, i read, and reply either in few hours or i nthe
morning tomorrow.
I agree to pay 90 eur if you win the debate. You have no risks
and obligations, nothing to pay for you.
You reperesent Wows commnuity because your opinion i s their
well known belief.
I say that you are wrong, and i will prove it in next posts.
I say that 20km torps are the best torps and your arguments to
support 12km torps are not stronger than the arguments to
support the 20km torps, or/and, your 12km arguments are wrong
and contain mistakes.
#Post#: 1648--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 1:00 pm
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[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1646#msg1646
date=1707676418]
The main point of torpedoes is to do damage
[/quote]
I can say i generally agree with that part, so we agree at least
in some part, but agreeing that part doesn't influence the
debate result.
I agree generally that torpedos are tools to achieve a victory
and one way to win is to make as much damage to the enemy total
health pool that it would end in 0 HP. You phrase the same idea
with different words so i agree with you.
Specially i agree with the word "main (point )", without that
word i would disagree.
Let me read next and reply on next clauses.
#Post#: 1649--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 1:06 pm
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I would like to attach a graphic to further clarify my position,
but am unable to do so.
#Post#: 1650--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 1:10 pm
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This forum is a freeware and they don't provide space to upload
straight to the forum, but fine is to upload your pictures for
exampel to a Imgur.com web site and then making a picture here
that shows it. It should be described there:
HTML https://wows.createaforum.com/rules/how-to-upload-an-image/
Al lyour lniks in the first post are fine, i believe your images
are fine too, go ahead and try to upload them to somewhere
first.
But they are not so important anyway, i for exampel am sure i
can debunk you without any links and any images.
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1649#msg1649
date=1707678414]
I would like to attach a graphic to further clarify my position,
but am unable to do so.
[/quote]
#Post#: 1651--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 1:25 pm
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[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1646#msg1646
date=1707676418]
(The main point of torpedoes is to do damage) and the one way
(to ensure damage on the enemy) is
[/quote]
You say that 1 way to achieve something is something that you
describe. I agree that this is 1 way, but we agree that there
are also other ways/aspects.
The same is to say that in a goal of becoming a millionaire 1
important thing is to have fast internet at home. I reply that i
agree that the speed is important, speed of internet, because in
slow internet you just can't get fast enough all the info you
need and may get frustrated and tired with slow internet. So,
surely i agree that the intenret speed in such example is
important, but i can prove there are other important things as
well beside internet speed. and i may disagree that internet
speed is the most influencial in such millionaire goal.
So,i agree on that part as well, that ensuring torpedos success
1 way is to have as fast torpedos as possible, this is surely 1
way to influence the success rate of those. I agree that it is 1
way. But i don't agree that there are no other ways, i don't
agree that it is eventually the main thing towards the total
torpedo damage amount. And i don't agree that 12km fast torps
make more victorious battles. I will prove that 20km torps will
make more benefit than 12km torps.
But i must first end reading your post, it takes time.
#Post#: 1652--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 1:38 pm
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HTML https://imgur.com/a/rNgkqlI
#Post#: 1653--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 1:46 pm
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[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=224.msg1651#msg1651
date=1707679514]
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1646#msg1646
date=1707676418]
(The main point of torpedoes is to do damage) and the one way
(to ensure damage on the enemy) is
[/quote]
... becoming a millionaire 1 important thing is to have fast
internet ...
[/quote]
With the creation of the internet came electronic trading. Very
quickly, this lead to trading strategies reliant on maximally
fast execution of trades.
This, in turn, lead to "Co-location has become a lucrative
business for exchanges, which charge HFT firms millions of
dollars for the privilege of “low latency access.” " - fast, low
latency connections to the stock market are vital for making
money (becoming a millionaire).
More simply - companies pay MILLIONS to have faster internet
access to the stock exchange.
HTML https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/042414/youd-better-know-your-highfrequency-trading-terminology.asp
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_trading
#Post#: 1654--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: Hanuman Date: February 11, 2024, 1:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1646#msg1646
date=1707676418]
The three choices for Shmima are as follows (assuming maximum
perks/modules):
Type93 - 68.3 kts @ 2.5km detc. = 14s react.
[/quote]
Meanwhile i jump for a second to the reaction time topic, later
come back to the previous topics. If anyone forgets/ignores any
arguments then tell and they must reply.
You talk about the concept of Reaction Time. That reaction time
topic is not so simplistic. If some torps have let's say 14
seconds of spotted/visible time duration then you call it as the
Reaction Time. You agree that humans don't use reaction times
ideally from the first millisecond. They are usually busy in
other things, it takes time for their eyes to notice that the
reaction time has started, and put some time to make a decicion
what to do, etc. It all takes time, so the Reaction Time is not
actually the time anyone reacts because on first seconds or
sometimes all seconds the awereness go to other things. So, if
we talk about the Reaction Time then it is not so ideal as it
looks. It is not usually so that a slow BB starts to turn to
left imemdiately from the first second of the 14 seconds, and
even if he does it from 14th or 4th second then he still takes
enough damage. So, i express my opinions more clear later about
it, now i say that the concept of Reaction Time is not so
simplistic thing.
#Post#: 1655--------------------------------------------------
Re: 900 € Debate: 20km Torps on Shmima
By: infty13 Date: February 11, 2024, 1:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=224.msg1654#msg1654
date=1707680855]
[quote author=infty13 al dente link=topic=224.msg1646#msg1646
date=1707676418]
The three choices for Shmima are as follows (assuming maximum
perks/modules):
Type93 - 68.3 kts @ 2.5km detc. = 14s react.
[/quote]
Meanwhile i jump for a second to the reaction time topic, later
come back to the previous topics. If anyone forgets/ignores any
arguments then tell and they must reply.
You talk about the concept of Reaction Time...
[/quote]
the inclusion of the human component is irrelevant and it makes
discussion near impossible. A very good player will have very
short reaction time, as well as being able to predict whether or
not torpedoes are coming his way WITHOUT seeing them.
Seeing torpedoes is only a confirmation for a good player, not a
necessity.
What is "enough damage"?
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