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#Post#: 1101--------------------------------------------------
Debate: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get pun
ished
By: Anonymous Unicum Date: March 12, 2023, 6:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Dear author ofthe previous post,
you state that the punishment is conducted without even telling
the reason why they got punished. At the same time the message
shown in the picture shared indicates the use of
insulting/provoking language. In case you believe you've never
ever written something insulting before receiving a chatban you
can ask WarGaming to send you the logs of all your previous
chats. You can also try to contact the support and ask for the
specific reason of your punishment.
I agree that the reporting and chat ban mechanic is not very
transparent to the players. Neither it is known to me how many
reports are needed to receive a ban nor whether there'll always
be a human in the end looking at the specific games where one
received reports and then banning the specific player from chat
according to the text written. The only thing which I was told
is that chatbans lasting longer than 2 days are usually decided
on by a member of player support. Anyways it would be good to,
in case of getting chatbanned, receive an email to your linked
email-address clearly showing the phrases which got you
chatbanned. This, however, is only possible in case of the
banning system working on single incidents and not on
accumulating reports over time.
Regarding your approach on questioning the system of banning in
general: of cause insults etc. are mostly subjective. Based on
the set of values of the ruling power a specific incident counts
as an insult or just an opinion you#re free to share. Sometimes
people also find the truth insulting like calling out someones
mistakes during the game. However the company is forced to
prevent this from happening by law. So in case the company gets
to know about a specific persons "insulting" behaviour (either
by reports or a bot) the company is forced to take action
preventing further incidents as it later on might face legal
issues.
You criticise the reporting system where I partilly have to
agree. I myself do not write anything in chat when either
playing CV or SS as the risk of getting reported even for just
writing "Hello" is increased a lot due to the polarising nature
of these "balanced" classes. In case of WG making the mechanisms
behind the way the reporting and chat banning system public
it'll defenitely increase and improve the communications inside
the team. Still I'd not remove the reporting system in general
as it's an easier and better way to prevent misbehaviour in chat
as most bots only look at the words and dont understand the
context which might result in false bans.
At last I wanted to approach your aspect of thievery. You state
that everything you buy you own and as soon as somebody takes it
it's thievery. When you now exceed the speed limit with your own
car in european countries like Italy the state is allowed to
confiscate and sell your car. There is a difference between
stealing and punishment as for the punishment you have to act
against the rules/law. You can predict it as you know the rules
beforehand and you know how to avoid being punished.
---
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=186.msg1100#msg1100
date=1678617185]
In a famous book people were punished but they didn't have right
to ask why they get punished and what's for.
[quote]
The consequences are devastating: one cannot know the name of
one’s own crime,
[/quote]
HTML https://researchportal.helsinki.fi/en/publications/kafka-crime-and-punishment
In legal system one is not put to the prison but to a mental
hospital if he has a mental disease that disables to understand
what he is doing. Also teenagers don't get full penalty because
they also are considered to have delusional mind that doesn't
understand things yet. But in grown up sane world and specially
in business sector where money is involved one must get a very
clear explanations why he gets punished. This is reasonable,
otherwise some business or governmental officer can come to your
home and kill you and there is no obligation to explain why he
did it and what had you done wrongly. The second issue with
punishment for an unknown reason is that it develops sicj mind.
For example, one might guess that he got punished because saying
Hello and on his next life he never says Hello anymore because
he remembers a punishment.
So, punishment must include a very clear message, and the goal
is not to make anyone suffer or feed punisher's sadistic ego.
The goal is to give a message what exactly was not allowed and
give the cure how to prevent it next time. For example, if you
say in some countries that there is a War in Ukraine, then you
go to jail but does it make you change your mind? No, it
doesn't, because next time you say again the truth, and jail
does not make anyone better but usually worse.
In business the ethics is that if you payed for something then
you own it and nobody can take it away. If someone wants to take
away your apple, gaming account and premium time/ships, software
program, then he must first refund you the money you paid for
it. Otherwise it is called stealing, thievery.
In Wows official forum and in the game itself people complain
often that they don't know when and what exactly they did wrong
before getting a punishment via banning from chat or from entire
game or from forum. Those who report promote such punishment,
the game who executes the punishment is a thief and acts like in
the above famoues Kafka book.
Example of a suprising message that does not say when and what
exactly was done wrong.
HTML https://imgur.com/UAOm72U
[/quote]
#Post#: 1102--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Hanuman Date: March 12, 2023, 7:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
Dear author ofthe previous post,
[/quote]
There is no need to say "Dear" if you really don't mean it and
life proves that very often a started cosmetical poiteness
proceeds with a few seconds into insults and other misconducts.
I suggest to omit the rudimental phrases like Hi, Dear, etc, and
we have writte nsomewhere a rule about it and explain it there.
It is just an unneccessary noise and 100% of times in our
debates turns into very low ethics which makes controversal
ethics. I suggest, that there is no need for noise, just be a
"good monk, and a good lawyer". I for example don't reply to you
with Dear/Hello but my ethics has been fine during all debates
that i have won, i never call opponent to be idiots for example
etc, which is a very common behaviour in your community.
Obviously i cannot force you to speak differently, but i still
suggest to not make such Dear-clauses noise to others, they
don't need it and the rules explain why.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
you state that the punishment is conducted without even telling
the reason why they got punished. At the same time the message
shown in the picture shared indicates the use of
insulting/provoking language.
[/quote]
Yes, i state that in Wows official forum and in the game one
gets punishment and they don't know why. So, you understand my
statement well and i explained it clear enough. I can add more
details. For example, if you post 100 times a junk of text
during 10 days and then receive on the 11th day that you
violated some rules among those 100 posts then that does not
tell you exactly which of those 100 texts made the violation.
Even if the announcer says that the text in post number 77 on
the day 7 violated a certain rule then you still don't know
which sentence inside that post number 77 violated the rule. So,
i believe my statement is clear but i can give more
clarifications and examples. You as an opponent can reply to me
and explain how can a person know which of the 100 posts
violated the rule, or which of the sentences inside the post
number 77 violated. In Wows community and in the famoues book
Kafka a person who receives a punishment doesn't get such
information.
You say that the message on the example picture shows something.
I agree that it shows a message but that message does not say
that provocation was done on day 7 in post 77 and in the
sentence number 7 and it does not define what is provocation.
So, that message does not tell anything and that proves my
point.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
In case you believe you've never ever written something
insulting before receiving a chatban you can ask WarGaming to
send you the logs of all your previous chats. You can also try
to contact the support and ask for the specific reason of your
punishment.
[/quote]
I disagree with your statement. I understand that you say that
if a person beleives that he has never done a sin in his life
only then he should contact the issuer for explanations. Do you
agree that your idea with "never ever (sins)" is wrong? Yes or
no? If no, then i suggest to stopn here and let's go deeper with
that 1 particular idea and no need to make noice with other
arguments yet. Do you agree that your idea in the above text is
wrong? If Yes, then i proceed to next arguments, if no, then
let's ignore other arguments and go deeper with that 1 argument.
Your suggestion would not work even in a very religious country
because even those religions there state that everyone makes
sins. And your idea would silence the country because nobody
would dare to complain.
And humans can't remember if they did a sin during previous 77
days or not, because human memory is weak.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
you can ask WarGaming to send you the logs of all your previous
chats. You can also try to contact the support and ask for the
specific reason of your punishment.
[/quote]
Your sugegstion sounds like "take a lawyer". I'm not sure if i
can find answers but there are nice examples where famoues
politicians/lawyers explain that less than 3% of people can
afford to hire a lawyer and therefore in life such aspect is
widely abused because abusers are sure that the victim won't
start a stressful and expensive lawcase.
In Wows you don't risk with money but still lose time and get
stressed etc and if you are mentally not sick then you never
ever report anyone in entertainment and also don't do any
queries why you are banned from a certain sport club etc- you
just go to entertain elsewhere. So, one must have wrong mindset
if he reports i nentertainment anyone or cares if he gets
reported, for sure he won't visit the administration staff of
the entertainment facility.
In next posts i will proceed with your statements. But can you
first confirm about the above middle statement? If you don't
agree that you are wrong in there above then i create a separate
Debate topic with that statement and introduce debating rules
and offer you prizes and we can do a debate there.
(Also note that i have nothing personal or emotional for the
hundreds of bans that i have got and seen others to get by
stating thatt hey don't understand either what they did wrong.
Nothing personal, emotional. It is jsut a wikipedia topic, and
will be very likely a professional debate where there is nothing
personal involved, only professional rational argumentation. I
have many accounts in Wows and in other games so i can chat
enough everywhere, and i disagree with almsot every opinion and
understanding that Wows commnuity has, so there is no way for me
to believe that i do anything wrong. I have never violated any
rules, and even if someone can prove that i have, then i don't
really care about it. My goal is to build a good Wikipedia, and
do professional debates, to show the truth. So, such
perspective.)
#Post#: 1103--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Hanuman Date: March 12, 2023, 9:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
I agree that the reporting and chat ban mechanic is not very
transparent to the players.
[/quote]
So, we both agree at least in something- that the banning system
could be better. If we go into details then we will see
differences but in general we agree on that part. I want to note
that in that case you generally agree with that Wikipedia post.
You agree in general more or less because your point of view is
"cloud be better" and the wikipedia's viewpoint is "is bad"- so
both opinions are almost the same.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
Neither it is known to me how many reports are needed to receive
a ban
[/quote]
Here again we agree that there is a lack of transparency and
clarity. Wikipedia states the same. There is not even clear list
of rules which define what is a provocation etc.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
The only thing which I was told is that chatbans lasting longer
than 2 days are usually decided on by a member of player
support.
[/quote]
It does not matter what anybody tells, there is no need to
blindly believe. Your blind believes prove that the reporting
system can be better so there wouldn't be any need to blindly
believe anything, and the Wikipedia topic says generally the
same.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
Anyways it would be good to, in case of getting chatbanned,
receive an email to your linked email-address clearly showing
the phrases which got you chatbanned. This, however, is only
possible in case of the banning system working on single
incidents and not on accumulating reports over time.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if your suggested emailing is the best idea but it
might be if to analize it later. The main idea of your thought
here is that you agree with the Wikipedia topic that there
should be a clear udnerstanding what and when was misconducted
before putting a person into prison. Otherwise it would make the
issues stated i nthe Wikipedia initial post. So, you again agree
with the Wikipedia.
I think it is fine as a first step to show issues, and only
after that move to suggestions step. Maybe the emailing idea is
good, maybe other ideas are better, that is another topic.
Sometimes it may end so that there is no better solution, but i
don't feel it is in this case, even your initial suggestions
with emails etc can improve and wouldn't decrease the profit.
When i asked from the Wows official forum with a private message
that can you point which of my sentences violated anything then
the moderator didn't reply at all, but interestingly the Wows
community members later replied that they knew very well what i
violated and what i ate in the morning- even that is an example
that an improvement would be if a moderator would reply that
sentence number 7 violated the rule number 5.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
Regarding your approach on questioning the system of banning in
general: of cause insults etc. are mostly subjective.
Based on the set of values of the ruling power a specific
incident counts as an insult or just an opinion you#re free to
share. Sometimes people also find the truth insulting like
calling out someones mistakes during the game.
[/quote]
When you say that banning is a subjective system then it means
that the banning/reporting system is with issues, and the
Wikipedia topic states some of those.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
However the company is forced to prevent this from happening by
law. So in case the company gets to know about a specific
persons "insulting" behaviour (either by reports or a bot) the
company is forced to take action preventing further incidents as
it later on might face legal issues.
[/quote]
News portals are best examples where lawcases rise if someone
writes that "president Biden is a faschist", but even in those
portals there are not often such cases. and if we look a
computer game chat then nobody makes such statements there
towards famoues people, so the chitchat is just in style like
"all go r-a-p-e player bob"- it is very unlikely that Bob goes
to a court because of a temporar erased chitchat. That's why i
practically haven't ever heard any lawcases about such
chatrooms, and even in the newspaprer permanent commentaries it
happens really rarely because president Biden really doesn't
have to care what someone said.
So, practically i don't see that chatrooms in computer games
have caused any issues so far and therefore. If to remove
temporar chatbans totally then i don't think that lawcases would
arise in computer games.
It may be true what you say that game company is obligated to
have a reporting system. We can investigate that rule separately
later but i practically don't see that most game companies do
that.
Even in this forum the word r-a-p-e is forbidden so i write it
with the minus-symbols. So, practically such rule of forbidden
words does not actually make anyones mind to exclude such words
and thoughts, and is very questionable if it is good to force
people to write weird way the r-word.
If it is true that some kind of reporting must exist by the law
then we al lagree that the current system can be made better.
But, i suggest to see that law first, secondly thing about
solutions. But this wikipedia post as a first step in such
scenario is elementary.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
In case of WG making the mechanisms behind the way the reporting
and chat banning system public it'll defenitely increase and
improve the communications inside the team.
[/quote]
I didn't understand your English there. Do you mean that
reporting improves teamwork? It doesn't because the banned team
member cannot type an naswer to the team.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
Still I'd not remove the reporting system in general as it's an
easier and better way to prevent misbehaviour in chat as most
bots only look at the words and dont understand the context
which might result in false bans.
[/quote]
You say that the current reporting system is better than
nothing. Well, we agreed above that it could be better. But
could it be ideal or with a perfect another solution? That is a
futher topic. The arguments show that currently people don't
really know which their statement caused removing the human
rights or using the paid product. In human world you must solve
such issue and there are always solutions and very hardly it
ends with the status that there can't be done anything better.
In the world there are plenty of solutions, including also so
called silent laws or how to cla lthem- those mean that all
authorities know that all violate some certain legal laws but
they close their eyes and are silent and won't raise any
discussion about it. In life beside such solution there are also
more legal solutions etc.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
At last I wanted to approach your aspect of thievery. You state
that everything you buy you own and as soon as somebody takes it
it's thievery. When you now exceed the speed limit with your own
car in european countries like Italy the state is allowed to
confiscate and sell your car. There is a difference between
stealing and punishment as for the punishment you have to act
against the rules/law. You can predict it as you know the rules
beforehand and you know how to avoid being punished.
[/quote]
I udnerstand that you say that governmental authorities have
made some rules in their favour, for example governmental police
is allowed to kill people but other citizens are not. And your
example is with governmental car law.
It is inevitable that government needs some such laws, specially
for police, but WG is a rich company not a government. About the
italian car law i think that it is just a law liek i described
above, that actually it never gets power, it is just a
cosmetical law to either make fear or something, but it never
confiscates any cars for sure.
Most countries would call italy a thief if it takes away
people's car etc. They should just take away car licence for 6
months. But again, it is a governmental example, and WG should
not play a god and not a government.
In deeper spiritual understanding stealing is even a wider term,
but in practical world WG really steals. But that stealing is
another Wikipedia topic. If you want we can go deeper into the
stealing topic somewhere later.
What do you mean that punishment and stealing are somehow
separated or different? It is not allowed to respond to a rule
violator with rule-violating act. For example, one is not
allowed to kill another criminal as a punishment because that
would put the punisher to the jail. So, WG should not punish
with methods like taking away your cat and car and wows account
which was obtained by buying many virtual goods that you should
buy again after loosing those via the account ban. Do you agree?
There are also some more general lawa and agreements in West,
for example the right of speach should remain for prisoners, but
some countries remove election rights for them etc. But the
fundamental right to speak is remained always everywhere, so
chatbans violate that rule creating a "punishment via another
rule-violation". People should always have right to speak, at
least with the clan members they own but certainly with even
more. I forgot what i wanted to say here..., so punishment must
be very clear and explanatory and follow all laws and common
sense. But in Wows it is clealry thievery and the reporting
system bad, one doesn't know what and when was something
violated.
(Also i suggest to note that my this current post would result a
ban in the Wows official forum. I don't feel that it has any
rule violations and i doubpt anyone could convince that there
are some reasonable rules that my this post would violate. I
invite them here to try to prove any violation in such post
here. And if they are not capable then that demonstrates their
reporting-banning system and rules have issues.)
#Post#: 1104--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Anonymous Unicum Date: March 12, 2023, 9:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
regarding your reply dealing with the topic of greetings: Using
a greeting shows at least the minimum level of respcet towards
your opponent in the debate. To keep a cultured conversation
this respect is essential as otherwise it will quite fast just
end with an exchange of insults. I hope it's understandable to
you that this resect in a conversation is essential.
For the following argument I'd like to point out that the
structure I choose had a certain intention. As a single sentence
can't take in all the information of one topic without making it
unreadable I structured the different aspects into paragraphs.
This way I'd like to point out that some of your questions would
be addressed just in the next sentence. Therefore your approach
of arguing against single sentences of one paragraph without
considering the context and also previous or following arguments
regarding the same point is, in my opinion, not the best choice,
as some of your arguments get neglected this way. To some extend
it seems like you didn't read all the statements I made.
For example:
I agreed to you that the WG report and ban policy is
intransparent.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
I agree that the reporting and chat ban mechanic is not very
transparent to the players. Neither it is known to me how many
reports are needed to receive a ban nor whether there'll always
be a human in the end looking at the specific games where one
received reports and then banning the specific player from chat
according to the text written. []Anyways it would be good
to, in case of getting chatbanned, receive an email to your
linked email-address clearly showing the phrases which got you
chatbanned.
[/quote]
Therefore your 2nd paragraph is to a higher extent quite
redundant.
At the end of your argumentation you address my suggestion to
ask WG for the chat-logs or contact player support in case you
thing you haven't done anything bad. WG has to have of your
wrongdoing as they probably didn't decide to ban you out of
nowhere as a policy like this would also be against the law. In
this case I'd like to know whether you ever approached
WG-support and asked for the specific details which resulted in
the ban. In case you never did so this topic can be closed as
it'll only be based on speculations. As you state that there is
noone without sin you're right, but this would also mean that
everyone doesn't have to be surprised getting a chatban.
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=186.msg1102#msg1102
date=1678623212]
[...] if you are mentally not sick then you never ever report
anyone in entertainment [...]
[/quote]
This is something I strongly disagree with. Many playery play
the game to have fun. When you're getting insulted or mocked by
players in the chat you get angry resulting in stress. Following
your logic I'd now have to stop playing as the game is no fun
anymore due to the missbehaviour of people in chat (note that
deactivating the chat doesn't solve all the issues as then you
can't communicate with your allies anymore). Why should a person
not doing anything wrong stop playing just because someone who
can't behave is present all the time. Should you punish the one
who is insulting or the one who doesn't want to get insulted? It
is necessary to remove those few who do not behave to ensure the
majority having fun. So as a result the "report" is a mechanic
to remove specific things from the game which negatively effect
their gameplay experience by majority vote.
#Post#: 1105--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Anonymous Unicum Date: March 12, 2023, 9:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=186.msg1102#msg1102
date=1678623212]
I have never violated any rules, and even if someone can prove
that i have, then i don't really care about it.
[/quote]
I'm not really sure how to rate this in context of an argument
#Post#: 1106--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Hanuman Date: March 12, 2023, 10:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1104#msg1104
date=1678631520]
Hello,
regarding your reply dealing with the topic of greetings: Using
a greeting shows at least the minimum level of respcet towards
your opponent in the debate. To keep a cultured conversation
this respect is essential as otherwise it will quite fast just
end with an exchange of insults. I hope it's understandable to
you that this resect in a conversation is essential.
[/quote]
The Hello-word mentality rule will go as a separte clear rule
under rules folder but we have explained it already earlier to
your community there:
[quote author=Admin al Dente link=topic=108.msg620#msg620
date=1665666223]
4. It is forbidden to say intentionally irrelevant things like
Hello, Regards, PS, Btw, etc. I explained in one debate that
such PS-sections at the ends, or Btw-phrases are totally useless
noise. They have no adequate goal. Again, i say that here to
everyone who is interested in future debates. Also in ethics it
is so that it is not better if one uses politeness in wrong
places/ways. For example, if one kills another then that is not
ethical, but if one says during that act "kind regards" then
that is even more unethical and called probably sadism etc. Many
people believe primitively that a polite phrase is always a
polite good thing no matter which context it is used in. Very
often such cosmetically polite behaviour turns into salty
sarcasm, or sadism as we explained. There is no need to be or
risk to be a sadist, sarcastic, etc. Be adequate instead. No
need for "kind regards" in debates. I'm not sure if it is wise
to let people use such rudimental phrases in non-debatal topics,
i have to think, let them use elsewhere i guess. But i don't
feel myself any need to do any such irrelevant
phrases/behaviours and in debates it is a must to follow such
rule.
[/quote]
Your argument seems to be that it is cultural in your culture to
say Hello in the beginning of every post. I can debunk such
argument by saying that we are not from your culture, and your
culture is not very popular because you don't see in forums
people saying Hello, and in court/debates usually people don't
repeat such Helloing either. Our ideology here is "be a good
monk (ethical, have good intentions)" but you seem to have egoic
intentions because you serve your rare culture rather than
accepting the rules of this house which are very well explained.
Common sense says that argumentations must be as clear and
compact as possible, hence no reason to post spam images, or add
unneccessary words like Lol or Hello. Latter 2 words, spam
images, etc are considered as noise and worsens readability,
because you cannot prove that they support any arguments.
It is not reasonable to change your view point in debates (if
you first don't want to agreethat you lost the debate), and
changing your mentality/ethics is not professional either. As i
explained, all our debate examples contain low ethics and you
that every day from your community official forum, and Helloing
have ended here always with insults etc which proves that the
initial cosmetical hint to higher ethics/respect was jsut
illusional/controversary/misleading/unprofessional. So, in msot
cases in your community such Hello does not intend any higher
ethics, but serves other goals. Yet you claim that Helloing
shows respect etc. But it shows disrespect to the rules we have
here and to the explanations i provided to those rules. There is
no need for such Helloes.
All that debunks your believes about the Helloing goals in your
rare culture. And that proves that you are not capable for a
debate. We can stop here any futher arguments, just like we
suggested to stop above where you ignored it, and ask do you
agree that you are wrong not only in the 1st ignored argument
but also in here with the Helloing case? If you answer No, then
this is called a 2nd ignorance and we decalre you are a looser
of the debate. Because one who ignores 2 simple questions is
declared as a loser, this is in court so, in debate rules, etc.
I have written an explanation for that somewhere and will repeat
here later in the debate summary. Here with the ignorant
Helloing with and with false explanation for that you have
proved that you are not capable to continue the debate.
But i suggest not to be so brutal, so let's give you 1 more
msitake allowance.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1104#msg1104
date=1678631520]
To some extend it seems like you didn't read all the statements
I made.
For example:
I agreed to you that the WG report and ban policy is
intransparent.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1101#msg1101
date=1678621390]
I agree that the reporting and chat ban mechanic is not very
transparent to the players. Neither it is known to me how many
reports are needed to receive a ban nor whether there'll always
be a human in the end looking at the specific games where one
received reports and then banning the specific player from chat
according to the text written. []Anyways it would be good
to, in case of getting chatbanned, receive an email to your
linked email-address clearly showing the phrases which got you
chatbanned.
[/quote]
Therefore your 2nd paragraph is to a higher extent quite
redundant.
[/quote]
You seem to say that i didnt read some text. Your above
explanation doesn't reveal it. You show that i reply to
something, so can you show which of your argument i didnt
answer? I already mentioned that you ignored some of my
arguments and questions, but i myself don't usually ignore. So,
can you show where i ignored your thought?
The above text shows that you agree with me that chat ban has
issues. So, which part anyone ignored anywhere?
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1104#msg1104
date=1678631520]
WG has to have of your wrongdoing as they probably didn't decide
to ban you out of nowhere as a policy like this would also be
against the law. In this case I'd like to know whether you ever
approached WG-support and asked for the specific details which
resulted in the ban. In case you never did so this topic can be
closed as it'll only be based on speculations. As you state that
there is noone without sin you're right, but this would also
mean that everyone doesn't have to be surprised getting a
chatban.
[/quote]
I understand that you say that WG is obligated to archive chat
history in their databse. Probably they are, i believe, but
above i suggested to think if they are obligated really to have
a reporting system. Then you ask if i contacted WG support. I
replied already that i don't think anybody should contact and
the system should not force to contact, and those repeated
answers here are enough for you opinion. Additionally you
mention that if someone didn't contact someone then that
determines the truth or fairness of something? I don't agree
with that, because if a person doesn't know what and when he
violated then the punishment has no goal, hence is illegal,
secondly it does not prove that something really was violated. I
already explained that above.
At the end you say that one should not be suprised to see a
punishment when he doesn't know what's for it is meant for and
how to prevent it to happen next time. That sounds irrational. I
sugegst here again to take your such standpoint and stay only on
it, because it is not clear if you are wrong in 3 things already
and continue to pick up 4th and 25th thing- it is pointless.
Let's decide like we do in debates, that you chose 1 statement
and we stay only on that one. Here your statement about suprisin
is a 3rd debate topic as i remember that you could chose.
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=186.msg1102#msg1102
date=1678623212]
[...] if you are mentally not sick then you never ever report
anyone in entertainment [...]
This is something I strongly disagree with. Many playery play
the game to have fun. When you're getting insulted or mocked by
players in the chat you get angry resulting in stress. Following
your logic I'd now have to stop playing as the game is no fun
anymore due to the missbehaviour of people in chat (note that
deactivating the chat doesn't solve all the issues as then you
can't communicate with your allies anymore). Why should a person
not doing anything wrong stop playing just because someone who
can't behave is present all the time. Should you punish the one
who is insulting or the one who doesn't want to get insulted? It
is necessary to remove those few who do not behave to ensure the
majority having fun. So as a result the "report" is a mechanic
to remove specific things from the game which negatively effect
their gameplay experience by majority vote.
[/quote]
Your main point here is that minority of people stop an
entertainment game because their mentality cannot handle
insults.
The short answer is Yes, let them stop playing football if they
get upset by some sayings during the game. Most would continue
to play the football and also the Wows. don't you agree? Only
minority have such unstable mentality that they cannot continue
and very good if they change the entertainment type. I don't see
anything wrong if minority either leaves the entertainment and
choses another one, or, they grow thicker skin sooner or later.
So, the short answer is that it is very fine if some minority
with more unstable mentality would leave such part of the life
temporarily. Life is full of racism etc, and specially in Wows
everyone knows that there are group-r-a-p-i-n-g mentality,
sadistic mentality, ship-type-Racism and much more. Despite
reportings people still continue to report thousands of times
per day, so reporting hasn't changed anything. There is no need
to be egoic and say that it is not fair if 0.1% of teenagers
leave one entertainment because it introduced bad ship types or
had bad chats- it is totally fair that they leave and for the
majority the chat is and has been fine, otherwise they wouldn't
continue to play.
Also note that the world has less terrorism if people are more
emotional in entertainment games etc. Your suggestion to turn
off chat sounds pretty fine to me. If you are mentally unstable
then turn chat off. What is so unfair or not entertaining here?
do you have proofs that minority makes suicides because in chat
people insulted him and obviously mainly because of the
Stats-religion based opinions? No, there are not many such
traumas, and the main root is in the stats-religion, and other
wrong things the community has.
If your main point tries to say that it is not fair that
minority has to turn chat off or move to another game, then
there are similar counter-arguments that also show that minority
and even bigger part gets abused many ways and are more serious
topics. For example racism, thievery, human rights, some of our
debators here tried to cause big crimes like exploading city
towers all because Wows community stats-oriented opinions and
behaviours. And also those more extreme chat talks are all
originating from the root cause: Wows community racist values.
Insults are not important, and not often, but they come from the
Wows commnuity stats-belief. They are stressed because of their
stats and then they insult each other. I jsut call them all
r-a-p-i-s-t, sadists, racist etc, and explain well, with no
emotional reactions, this Wikipedia shows that we do everything
professionnaly and spea kthe truth.
I suggest you shose 1 main single statement from all of your
input. I suggested to you 3 suchs. Take one, and let's agree to
stay only on that one and not touch other topics. And try to
prove 1 such statement in the Debates folder.
#Post#: 1107--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Hanuman Date: March 12, 2023, 10:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1105#msg1105
date=1678632136]
[quote author=Hanuman al Dente link=topic=186.msg1102#msg1102
date=1678623212]
I have never violated any rules, and even if someone can prove
that i have, then i don't really care about it.
[/quote]
I'm not really sure how to rate this in context of an argument
[/quote]
You can ignore that part because it was in the round brackets.
I agree that it is offtopical in a way, but not so strongly
offtopic because it talks about banning rules and that is still
close to the main topic.
If you very insist the nwe can declare my such input as a small
mistake, i don't mind, but i nthat case i would insist many of
your more serious msitakes here to be evaluated, for example,
ignoring an argument 3 times has a value of 3 points while a
Helloing or offtopical talk in brackets means 0.3 points.
So, i suggest you ignore those part in the round brackets and i
admit that the forum doesn't have all debating rules clearly
written. I have said to many that we are not brutal with rules
in debates. And also note that in the official wows forum i
would already been permanently banned for my such posts, so you
as a wows commnuity member should be totally fine with our
non-brutal mild rules here.
Pick a certain 1 statement, and don't pick any irrelevant topic
like Helloing or round brackets, etc.
In my opinion your best chance to win here is to say that the
current banning system is not good but is better than nothing
for majority. That is a strong statement but it does not debunk
this Wikipedia topic. And your minor statements, in style
"contact a lawyer" are very weak and you would definitely lose
with them, but they don't affect the wikipedia main points much
anyway.
In overall i don't sense that you are anything different than
previous debators and the Wows commnuity. In our forum we
require a higher level than your community has. But if you more
or less follow resonable behaviour then it is fine and
benefitial for the community.
#Post#: 1108--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Anonymous Unicum Date: March 12, 2023, 11:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
as you seem to not show any respect ("hello topic") and do not
seem to understand the points I made I'll not argue further. As
you just kept repeating the same phrases over and over while
starting to use "racist" terms like "your culture" or "your
community" it seems useless to go on. Your statement saying "I
have never violated any rules, and even if someone can prove
that i have, then i don't really care about it." shows that you,
as a person, are not suited for an objective discussion. This is
not an insult but a fact. You state that you do not do bad
things. If someone proves you wrong about it you'll just ignore
that person. In terms of an argument this means that whenever
someone proves you wrong in a specific manner you'll just ignore
it. This could be seen during several arguments where you kept
ignoring those arguments you couldn't proove wrong. As this
trait immediately disqualifies someone from an objective
discussion trying to come to a rational conclusion I'll now
claim victory stating the "report"-system being flawed and
intransparent but still being necessary to ensure the fun of the
majority.
As soon as you decide to change your mind regarding this feel
free to state it so we can go back to a normal discussion.
Best regards.
#Post#: 1109--------------------------------------------------
Re: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get punishe
d
By: Hanuman Date: March 12, 2023, 11:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1108#msg1108
date=1678636930]
Hello,
as you seem to not show any respect ("hello topic") and do not
seem to understand the points I made I'll not argue further.
[/quote]
With Hello-topic i replied to you with counter-arguments and
when your turn came to respond to them then you ignored those
and only now repeat your debunked respect-argument. I explained
that it is you who don't respect and it is you who fail to
respond to arguments.
Also note, that as always the initial Helloing culminates with
saying that the opponent doesn't respect, is idiot, etc etc. So,
already in the beginning i was right about that Helloing and
predicted how it goes.
In life in social conversations the wisdom is to sometimes say
"let's all stay on different opinions" but in other areas, like
in court, parliament, etc, it is not only wise but not allowed
to escape with such phrase from the truth. Here we had a debate,
and i will move it to the Debates folder later, and we don't
socialize here, we debate and write Wikipedia, there is no place
for such social wisdom. Here you win the debate or you lose like
the whole wows commnuity has already lost. If you failed to
answer counter-arguments more than 3 times then it is very clear
that your such ignorance means that you lsot and are wrong. Do
you want me to repeat 4th time how is Hello supporting any of
your arguments here, or a spam image which is the msot popular
argument in Wows official forum? You failed because you could
not explain your Hello aspect and other things.
[quote author=Anonymous Unicum link=topic=186.msg1108#msg1108
date=1678636930]
As you just kept repeating the same phrases over and over while
starting to use "racist" terms like "your culture" or "your
community" it seems useless to go on. Your statement saying "I
have never violated any rules, and even if someone can prove
that i have, then i don't really care about it." shows that you,
as a person, are not suited for an objective discussion. This is
not an insult but a fact. You state that you do not do bad
things. If someone proves you wrong about it you'll just ignore
that person. In terms of an argument this means that whenever
someone proves you wrong in a specific manner you'll just ignore
it. This could be seen during several arguments where you kept
ignoring those arguments you couldn't proove wrong. As this
trait immediately disqualifies someone from an objective
discussion trying to come to a rational conclusion I'll now
claim victory stating the "report"-system being flawed and
intransparent but still being necessary to ensure the fun of the
majority.
As soon as you decide to change your mind regarding this feel
free to state it so we can go back to a normal discussion.
Best regards.
[/quote]
There is no need for hipocritical "Best regards" jsut like Hello
is not needed. If you failed with the Hello and other 3
arguments and call emotionally me not to respect then do you
yourself really respect anyone? Obviously not.
You failed to prove any of your statements, and here you don't
even provide any proofs/examples of your claims. You say that i
repeat soemthing. Well, if i repeat saying hello, then this is a
msitake, if i keep ignoring your arguments then it is a mistake,
if i keep saying the truth that i have proved plenty of times in
debates and in the Wikipedia, then i repeat the truth. Therefore
there is no need to note what i repeatedly do, jsut prove what i
do wrong no matter if i repeat it or not. Like i proved clearly
your msitakes, and have clearly debunked your commnuity popular
opinions. Those proofs are totally professional, no ignorance,
no Helloing, pure truth with clear pictures and so on.
You mention that i use the phrase "Your community". But why you
mention it, is it something wrong, maybe the racist Wows
commnuity is not your commnuity? Well, why don't you prove it. I
have usually asked people that name at least 1 opinion that
makes you different from a typical stats-believing Wows member.
For example, dare to say that stats don't matter of that Wows is
not an arcade game etc. And they fai lto answer, and all your
behaviour here was typical that you see in the official forum
and in our previous debates. So, it is totally correct to you
the phrase "your community" in the meaning of Wows commnuity,
and i have said many times in many places that i have never seen
during years any non-racist people in Wows commnuity. Even the
slogan under your account name says that you believe in stats.
So, obviously it is correct to repeat that you are Wows
community and not an individual with different opinions.
And i don't comment the remaining text you have.
This debate is over and i will write the sumamry soon.
I am lazy to go to the administration panel to change your
status to Isolated. Can we agree that this "Best Regard" was
your last post in this folder? You as a isolated member are
allowed to post to the isolation folder. But the debate is over
and no need to be meotional or continue.
#Post#: 1112--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debate: truth: peopel don't know why and what's for they get
punished
By: wows Date: March 12, 2023, 2:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The looser for this debate: Wows community.
There is no point to say that instead the debator "Anonymous
Unicum" with slogan "Stats matter - proof me wrong" lost
individually because he represents totally stats-obsessed Wows
community. His religion is equal to his community and hence he
didn't behave nor say anything new compared to other debators.
Typically he jumped to so many topics like most debators and i
expected him to finally land "you have bad english" argument,
but he somehow supriced and landed to some kind potentionally
offtopical statement i made in round bracket somewhere. also
suprising was that he didn't say i nthe debate dialogue that i
have bad stats, but he had stats-related slogan under his
account name anyway. Jumping from one topic/argument to another
while ignoring my responses and counter-questions is something i
call sometimes in my mind as a Machine Gun mentality, or
Unstable Mentality. Such mentality means that frightened 60kg
boxer runs around 130kg boxer and tries to hit lightly here and
there and no luck and finally in a desperate try even totally
weird moves which in debates manifest like "gramamr argument"
etc. That's why i repeated many times this time and in other
debates that please calm down and chose 1 topic/statement and
stay on it.
I have written to debating rules somewhere that ignoring a
question-argument means that one loses the debate. I can repeat
it here again that the explanation is that if in a court you are
asked "why the murdered victim's body had your DNA on it and
where you were yesterday 1pm?", then you can't ignore such
question by changing the topic and saying "the victim's brother
has really bad english", or if you totally skip answering and
become silent, then all such behaviour is called ignoring, you
fail to respong to the question and that means you will lose
that court case and go to jail. Because your DNA was on the
victim's body and you fai lto explain that and other questions.
So, in this debate Wows commnuity failed with 1st word he made
first time in this debate: Hello. He was explained about that
word, and asked additional counter questions but he failed to
respond to those, and that means he was wrong i nthat matter.
There were at least 3 counter-questions he totally ignored, some
of them was even in Yes-no-style. Additionally he tried to prove
that i ignored one of his argument, but his attempt failed. I
under other hand answered to all his arguments and not only with
1 answer but many answers from many perspectives. Additionally i
gave helpful suggestions to the debator which we always do with
debators beside offering money to them and not being so brutal
with debating rules.
I didn't see longer/deeper conclusions, but short ones. In other
words it was something like "if A then B1 and B2" and that's it,
never until letter/level E.
Typical brainwashed behaviour where community mind tries to
justify all it believes even with extraordinary counter examples
like he made with the Italy example. And when i responded to
that italy argument he became silent again on that matter and
jumped to another topic like a fisherman changing the bait. I
repeat that if you change so many times the bait it means you
won't succeed and youwere all wrong with all bait types.
My suggestion are to read the book Kafka, or nowadays you
probably can lsiten it from Youtube or somewhere. It
demonstrates well the situation where punishment's goal is very
sick and it the victim doesn't even know what the goal could be
or what the reason was. Can you imagine that an officer comes to
your door tomorrow and arrests you and either doesn't say to you
at all why they arrest you, or, they something not very clear.
How would you feel? You can make the picture more realistic by
assuming that you do some sins in your life like most people and
companies do- so you are not sure which of those could be the
cause for the arresting. How would it feel? Certainly it does
not feel right. So, why do you support anything liek that or in
other phrasing, why do you try to support such reporting system?
Does it really looks to you that it is fine if someone arrests
you without any reason and or bans you so that you don't have a
clear transparent information about the reason? If you try to
support such insanity by coming to debate about it as a
defender, then your community must be mentally sick. Isn't it?
It is sick if you want a world when peopel come to arrest you
and you won't get even a document that proves what you did
wrong. My explanation is that the racist commnuity is so sick
because it's root values are so sick. It is like if your main
value is heroin or other such drug then also your whole
behaviour and ethics in life built on that value would become
sick. Hence such sick defending here.
To other next debators i suggest to:
1. practice to keep stable mind on 1 topic. don't jump liek a
mad squirrel.
2. learn adequate method. Those i phrase like "be a good
lawyer". It means that you don't do Helloing unless you can
really prove that Helloing is fine. don't ignore any arguments,
andy questions.
3. Don't assume that corrupted official forum moderators will
help you in this forum. In your official forum i am and would be
immediately banned and wouldn't know the reason, you all know
that fact. But here you must be adequate, without corrupted
mdoerators. So, forget your community support here.
4. find a guru who provides you debating, you will benefit of
those skills in the entire life a lot, but obsessed TeamWR
number will not benefit you in any way. Try to comprehend that.
I personally disagree to coach racist low level community
representatives, so find another place.
Be a good monk, and a good lawyer- like me.
*****************************************************