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#Post#: 769--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: 熱愛105°C的你 Date: October 27, 2022
, 9:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: This is not a debate, but some questions to the
original poster "WOWS" regarding the term "racism" and its use
on this forum.
[quote author=wows link=topic=51.msg768#msg768 date=1666876157]
In that Gold League Ranked battle i placed TOP 1 and played an
advanced ship type (DD) [...]
The chat member Rybak1999 had Silver Rank 1 and not Gold Rank 10
yet and used a primitive ship type in the game [...]
[/quote]
Regardless of getting called something by others, is it
ethically correct to call oneself superior compared to others?
That question is based on calling one ship "advanced" while
calling the other "primitive".
Also, since stats do not matter, why is the placement on the
result screen used as an argument? If other players use stats as
an argument and that same argument is being called "irrelevant",
but then suddenly it is used as an apparently important
argument, then the poster is clearly the opinion that stats do
matter.
Another remark is: Why are people with different opinions lumped
together with the so called "WoWs Community" and are called
racist? The WoWs community is a mix of different people. Having
that certain prejudice and giving everyone, with different
opinion than yours, the same attribute can also be called racism
(already enough examples by same poster on first post of
HTML https://wows.createaforum.com/rules/term-racism).
This is
clearly a violation against the forum rules and guidelines.
I do not care about your stats, nor how you really performed in
the ranked battle.
What is expected is an "adequate" explanation to these questions
without any biased opinion.
#Post#: 770--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: wows Date: October 27, 2022, 9:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Because i try to keep Wiki clean then i better move our dialogue
to another place.
I answer he and we don't have any awards for this dialogue.
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg769#msg769 date=1666882041]
Regardless of getting called something by others, is it
ethically correct to call oneself superior compared to others?
That question is based on calling one ship "advanced" while
calling the other "primitive".
[/quote]
Human language is a product made in Dualism and the latter one
has always problems like the whole Dualism, and one cannot be
ideal when talking/expressing, not even in ethics. Specially
personal pronouns are very illusional things, many human made
terms are misleading, and difficult to say which adjectives are
more ethical than others, and so on. Some are not native English
speakers and that results issues.
The adjective "primitive/simplistic" can offend egoic people of
course, specially if you address their favourable thing. I
personally don't feel any ego hurt if someone calls DD or Subs
that way or with other such adjective. Let them call and i don't
hurt but i would listen their definition of their adjective. I
have defined little bit here and there that term but not well
enough. So your question is good and i should define those terms
better in Wikipedia. If i just define that the term Primitive is
just a blind synonym for CRs/BBs then the question is why i need
another synonym at all and not use the 4-5 letter construction
CR/BBs. If my definition can show that those ship types have
something "more simple" than other ship types then one can say
that there is art in everything and BBs/CRs may have some tools
that other ship types don't have at all and that makes the
comparision and titling impossible just the same way as "oranges
vs apples". So, depends from which point to look at the whole
topic but i have chosen to look following way:
1. the higher the speed of the vehicle the more advanced it is
compared to slower ones because moving at higher speeds requires
more awereness to move quicker here and there. Everything
"higher/faster" actually means advancement from "(s)lower" so
all such adjectives suggest itself the term "advanced" because
they advance.
2. more things. More risks, because of scouting and close
combat, more importance for the team, because the whole team
depends on scouts, generally more tools, for example
torps+smoke+guns compared to guns+radar, DDs has more
manuverability, for example can dodge torps/bulelts, CVs has the
most complex aiming but DDs has the second complex because the
rate of fire is so fast etc. Maybe some other "more" things.
Such points draw a picture where a BB sits far from the action
and just moves slowly it's slow-moving guns and that's all he
does and can do whilst at the same time Cvs scout heavily and
use complex aiming and DDs scout at high risk and do complex DD
duels, at the same time when BBs sit back. And on that picture
CRs are not much more advanced from the described BBs. Such
picture makes a difference: some ship types are generally more
simple to play and mainly because those ships just are in their
nature simple, slow, etc. Also Sumo wrestling is a very
simplistic sport compared to MMA-fighting and if one Sumo-fan
gets offended with such title then he has itself problematic ego
or let him suggest a better word then. If we makea list of
skills that Sumo requires then that lsit would be shorter than
MMA lsit which has probably hundreds of moves and hooks and
things. The same with CRs/BBs that their abilities canbe written
in a shorter list than CVs/DDs lsit. It doesn't sound reasonable
to say that Suma and CRs has one unique thing that can be
mastered for decades etc and makes things incomparable like
apples and oranges are. No, it is possibloe to compare and
generalize with words Primitive/Advanced but if such comparision
includes some negative goal then it is a wrong act of course. I
have some times used in a negative manner those terms, when i
have decided to fall to the opponents ethics level, and that is
a msitake, a msitake in case the sayer admit it like i do now,
otherwise nobody knows if your intentions were neutral or not
and no mistakes can be seen/proved. In my opinion it is fine to
use such adjectives but if the receiver has a very high ethics,
which is not a case in Wows community, then it is a mistake. In
total, i think those words are fine if we look the Wows
community general ethics level which calls people mongoloids
etc. Do you suggest better adjectives?
I haven't yet categorized Subs. They are slow and not much tools
but like DDs take high risks and do important scouting, and some
other things. They are less advanced than DDs in my opinion so i
don't know how to call them yet.
#Post#: 771--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: wows Date: October 27, 2022, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I suggest to make many posts in a row and the reasonability is
obvious for that. I am aware that some forums prohibits that but
their explanation for such rule is not reasonable.
So i answer every paragraph as a separate psot.
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg769#msg769 date=1666882041]
Also, since stats do not matter, why is the placement on the
result screen used as an argument? If other players use stats as
an argument and that same argument is being called "irrelevant",
but then suddenly it is used as an apparently important
argument, then the poster is clearly the opinion that stats do
matter.
[/quote]
Stats matter for the community/opponents and to convince them
more you can talk in "their language" and use their methods. For
example, if someone believes that pork is evil then provide
examples with lamb if that serves the same goal for you. Stats
matter still for the community so let them be more convinced
then with all i say.
But placement TOP 1 is not the classical meaning of Stats. I
have expressed that exams are trustworthy ways to measure
abilities and not old highschool grades. So, if you do today TOP
1 placement in Gold League then this is an exam but your old
Ranked stats from previous seasons are not so much anymore. If
you completed Gold in the previous season then this is more or
less a valid exam result but 1 year old Ranked gold completition
is not because it is so old, and any averages like WR are
obviously not either because they are not exams and not recent.
In my opinion Gold league proves that one has top skills, and if
he demonstrates those as TOP 1 from time to time then that is
more than enough to prove his skills. It is already enough to be
in Gold league, but it is totally irrelevant if a person
completed gold 1 year ago, and totally irrelevant are all
numbers from the Stats web site.
So, i didn't provide classical Stats but something like Skills
among my team. My Gold team said in the chat that i don't have
skills and if i represent TOP 1 placement above them then it is
a counter-argument for their statement. As i said in the
beginning then i believe that all my text convinces better Wows
community if they see the TOP 1, that was the second reason, but
mainly it is a clear counter-argument to the "you have no
skills" statement. If i had got last placement then Wows
commnuity would have said that all my text was wrong and the
chat told right things. Now they can't say so. Personally i
don't need the TOP-placement at all and can agree that all i
said was right. But to maximize the effect and specially for the
wows community i think it was wise to add the TOP-placement
info.
Soemtimes i say that i have finished 3 times Bronze with ca 50
battles at ca 60% WR and a gold at 70% WR and a Silver at 200
battles, and i have documented those facts somewhere. I agree
that it looks like bragging about Stats but i use those examples
in debates as counter-arguments and not for some kind of ego
feeding. Starting from official forum i started to count Bronze
league completition battles quantity because the community there
didn't suggest me to play Rankeds at all and still they have the
same mentality as you see. It is good to ask their reaction for
those 3-seasons 50-batles stats, hopefully enlightening for them
and little bit amusing for me to see their reactions.
In conclusion, i don't agree that TOP-placement is Stats. A
league completition is an Exam and a TOP-placement sometimes an
argument that may work for the community. Even earlier the
community said here that i don't get TOP 1 probably and then i
made demo some days where i posted TOP 1 results as a proof for
the community. Not for my ego.
#Post#: 772--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: wows Date: October 27, 2022, 11:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg769#msg769 date=1666882041]
Another remark is: Why are people with different opinions lumped
together with the so called "WoWs Community" and are called
racist? The WoWs community is a mix of different people. Having
that certain prejudice and giving everyone, with different
opinion than yours, the same attribute can also be called racism
(already enough examples by same poster on first post of
HTML https://wows.createaforum.com/rules/term-racism).
This is
clearly a violation against the forum rules and guidelines.
[/quote]
You are right and you can prove it by an example that if we open
the Subs/CVs topic from the official forum then we see ca 1% of
posts to support Subs/CVs and that 1% is enough to prove that
you are generally right that there exist some different
opinions/people, not much but still, and that counter-example
proves your statement. So, in general your statement is right.
The question is that from which point it is wise to generalize
things. Human mind itself automatically tries to generalize but
ethics suggests to hide some chatter that the mind does and not
so show for others. Ethics is not a perfect thing and my ethics
generalizes about Wows community some things for 2 reasons. One
reason is that most seems to be conviced that Stats matter and
all the toxicity is based on that. You can show me as 1 who
don't believe in Stats religion, maybe you can find 2-3 more
from the official community but not so many, that's why it is
fine to act like mathematics does with "rounding up" and what
human minds does by generalizing and making logics etc. At the
same time i agree that those 2-3 may get offended and that's why
i explain now here and as i remember i have explained earlier
little bit that there is a tiny risk to encounter a person who
is not a stats-believer. When such rare risk happens one day
then i will apologize but it hasn't happened during 2 years yet.
And those 2-3 persons don't belong to the Wows commnuity in my
opinion, by my terms, so it is legal to phrase "Wows community
is racist (and 2-3 don't belong to that community)".
Beside stats-belief msot believe that Subs/CVs/WG are bad.
Again, open the official forum and the picture shows, also the
game chat shows. And those who silently watch all that and don't
dare to psot an opposing opinion are in a fear or just
brainwashed or something, and they silently support all of it,
and sooner or later take it as normality and behave the same
way.
What i summarized makes up the Wows community's mentality: most
say the same opinions and behave the same, and Stats=God=Truth.
So, i don't see that the Wows community has in general different
people. I haven't seen in this forum nobody yet who clearly is
outsider of the Wows commnuity. Bring him here and i won't call
him with the term "wows commnuity" and if he gets offended and
says that he is part of the commnuity then i msut say that in a
way he really is if his ego gets offended and he supports a
racist commnuity.
The forum rules are in the construction phase and what you said
was a right argument but when we prove a mistake then we should
also provide additionally solutions. Maybe there is no practical
solution. For example, maybe there is no better word-pair
available than "Wows community". And sometimes it may be
justified to act little bit unethically against unethics, like
police do, when they damage and kill humans but others are not
allowed to reply with the same to them. So, maybe it is fine to
use little bit generalized idea like "Wows community is racist"
because it cures more effectively and is not so unethical
compared to the real stats-racism with real mongoloids-words
every day in the official forum. For me with my term by my
vlaues and goals the phrase "Wows community is racist" and the
ideology behind it is fine but i agree that in tiny way it may
produce unwanted sufferings sometimes.
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg769#msg769 date=1666882041]
I do not care about your stats, nor how you really performed in
the ranked battle.
What is expected is an "adequate" explanation to these questions
without any biased opinion.
[/quote]
In general i explained that Ethics and the whole life is never
100% perfect and i have chosen an ideology that looks to me like
92% perfect compared to Wows community stats-ideology that is
34% perfect.
#Post#: 773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: wows Date: October 27, 2022, 11:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Among the debaters only 1 who made those conspiracy posts had
almost fine suitability to complete the Wikipedia here.
But even him was in major part a Stats-believer, a
Wows-community member.
I would pay in the game gold for someone who can help with
Wikipedia and things. The main requirement would be that he must
really understand that Wows commnuity is stats-racist, only a
pretending doesn't work for such role. And all Wows community
attitudes and behaviours are based on the main stats-ideology,
and thos ebehaviours must also be unnatural to that person. For
example, there is no place to call anyone mentally ill, or make
jokes about poverty, or drop words like "mongoloid" in, or tweet
"Slava-slava", or report anyone, or believe in Karma, etc. That
person can not have the Wows community mentality, he must be
above. Some people maybe partially suitable, for exampel to
write that "i don't care about this and that", but they lie to
themselves. It must be a natural maturity, naturally above Wows
community.
Because very likely there is no such person then i compelte the
wikipedia myself. But if the future shows potentiality then i
don't mind even pay. It is so irrelevantly small amount of an
expence and the overall goal for next decades would be great.
#Post#: 775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: 熱愛105°C的你 Date: October 27, 2022
, 4:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
First of all, thank you very much answering all my questions.
Regarding ship classes and their difficulty:
I agree that not every class is equally easy/difficult to play.
At the same time I acknowledge their contribution to the battle,
no matter what class was played and no matter how difficult the
task was as long as it was meaningful for the team.
Every ship has their own task in that one battle.
Regarding using battle result as an argument:
My experience on the official WoWs forum is close to zero, so I
can't judge the usual behaviour of their users.
Also, I haven't met many people that used "you have red stats",
"my stats are better" and similar arguments, but then again, I
don't visit the WoWs forum enough and can only judge it from my
ingame interactions with other players.
In my cases, whenever someone got insulted, it wasn't because of
stats, but because ones action didn't make sense to that
complainer.
From your explanation I can understand your point of view and
why you want to present these players their own arguments.
Regarding the usage of the term "WoWs-Community":
Personally, I see no issues with the term itself, but the way it
is used on this forum sounds like that there is no exception if
that person is not agreeing with your claims and arguments.
Concurrently, I understand that some term needs to be used to
address certain things and it will be difficult to satisfy
everyone.
There is no need for further explanation as I understood most of
your points written here. This is not supposed to be a debate,
but only a way to understand your way of thinking.
Thank you again for taking your time.
#Post#: 776--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: wows Date: October 28, 2022, 2:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Roles and tasks of a ship class is not a so clear topic. But
many believe that it is clear and is as they believe.
Even in the Gold battles I see a very brainwashed believes and
moves which proves that the roles/tasks topic is not simple. And
critics is not reasonable on not clear/simple things, and racist
critics never at all.
You can find Racist examples in this forum and from official
forum and from game chat and i can provide an example if you
can't find. I remember that even in the topic where you replied
you had an example screenshot where a person told to another
that he is not allowed to talk because of low Stats. So, there
are many examples and you seem to justify some critics and don't
believe it is Racist. If we go further talking with your such
opinion then we will probably see that you are brainwashed if
you believe that critics is normal and deserved and not
Stats-based. We have plenty of examples for that. If you don't
like the word Brainwashed then chose another, but it means that
you see as normality if someone uses Stats or skin color as an
argument to justify his opinion- your brain has been Washed to
see it as normality or a nice thing.
You seem to mention a detail about the term Wows Community
usage. I provided my view already and can repeat that you are
addressing a very tiny irrelevant ethical detail in a
context/community where you replied to a topic where someone was
said to shut up besaically because skin color. The same would be
to say that police should nock potentional criminals door longer
than minute and use more polite phrases etc-at the same time
when the major issue is big amount of criminality everywhere,
and not an irrelevant detail about phrases.
It is very rare that you are not visiting the official forum or
have not seen in game chat or in forums the racist behaviour of
the community. Rare but possible. Maybe not exactly rare but
just not true. I don't mind if people make up claims, i am
interested only in ideas and about the question How, not about
question Who.
#Post#: 777--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: 熱愛105°C的你 Date: October 28, 2022
, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Do not worry about sending me more examples. If I dig hard
enough, anyone can find enough material.
The one topic I replied to, I did see the lovely message of your
fellow team member. I just didn't comment on that. So it's not
clear if I am agreeing or disagreeing with that one person. But
the same applies to that person - One should respect the
opposing speaker.
That I might be "brainwashed" (in nicer terms, I would say
"influenced", but brainwashed is also fine) is nothing new.
Human beings live in a society. Nothing will change that my mind
is and will stay influenced by various factors.
I can't prove that I haven't encountered many racist behaviours
ingame. All I can "claim" (for myself) is, that most of the
time, people don't really write much after greeting each other
in a battle. Maybe sharing ones plan with other players. But
rarely have I received private messages about someone being
discontent about me. The forum I visited last time for Christmas
lottery.
For you it might be a regular occurrence, but for me, it's the
minority behaving rudely towards others, so I wanted to
understand your standpoint. That's why I asked and you already
gave me your answer.
#Post#: 778--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: wows Date: October 28, 2022, 6:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg777#msg777 date=1666954035]
Do not worry about sending me more examples. If I dig hard
enough, anyone can find enough material.
[/quote]
Seems that the main topic here is how big procentage of the Wows
community is UnKind in their nature/mind. And you seem to
believe that it is a small procentage and requires somedigging
whilst i believe it is a almost 100% and no need to dig. So,
such difference in believes. And the term UnKind here doesn't
mean only that 2 persons from 30 report immediately Sub/Cv
players in the beginning of the battle and 3 more say that one
should shut up because of his stats, but there are all remaining
others from 30 who silently agree with those 5 and take their
opinions/acts as normality and a nice thing. That makes almost
all 30 UnKind and that makes the procentage 100% and i call it
with word Racism and not UnKind because it is mostly based on
Stats-religion. While you seem to say that only those 3 persons
or ca 10% from the above example are UnKind. I don't think that
one who watches silently what those 5 do disagrees with them. We
can try to compare those 2 believes futher later. At the moment
i don't have a good idea how to compare believes.
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg777#msg777 date=1666954035]
The one topic I replied to, I did see the lovely message of your
fellow team member. I just didn't comment on that. So it's not
clear if I am agreeing or disagreeing with that one person. But
the same applies to that person - One should respect the
opposing speaker.
[/quote]
You say that you didn't comment a lovely racist message but why
you didn't then?
It is like watching how someone beats another and you don't
comment that but make an opinion about the trash bin in the
action place and say that the bin is not ethical because
requires hands to get the bin opened instead of using just a
leg. That draws a sociopathic picture where one doesn't care
about violence and doesn't understand that his offtopical
message about a bin may be interpreted as unethical and
supportive of the act. And such violence can happen to such
person very soon next time and then he would wish that someone
would stop the violence on him.
Everyone respecting everyone may be an ideal wish but not a
practical reality, and inpossible in the human/dualistic world.
Because there are many opinions, many ethics etc. For example,
your behaviour of ignoring a violence and talking about a bin
instead doesn't get interpreted as a respectful and kind act.
That example should be enough to prove that your idelaistic wish
that everything is fine and respectful is not practically
doable.
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg777#msg777 date=1666954035]
That I might be "brainwashed" (in nicer terms, I would say
"influenced", but brainwashed is also fine) is nothing new.
Human beings live in a society. Nothing will change that my mind
is and will stay influenced by various factors.
[/quote]
Some believes influence humans less and some more and the
sufferings caused by the latter ones can be removed if to
enlighten people. For example, let's assume that Ukranian War
causes lot of sufferings, hundreds of thousands of people die,
and some lose electricity at homes, etc- those sufferings and
the War started because there are different opinons and you can
cal lthose opinions as a brainwash or brainwashed opinions. So,
if to remove there the brainwash and other related things then
the war would not happen and the sufferings wouldn't happen. Is
it wise to try to lessen those sufferings that the was has
created? Sounds reasonable. Is it wise to ignore the war and the
brainwashed believes that caused it? No, it is not wise to
ignore and say "let's respect different opinions and things"
because such ignorance causes lot of sufferings like the War is.
In Wows community stats-racism causes lot of sufferings to
people, not to me, but for many young ones now and later in
their life, jsut liek the War causes now sufferings.
In the previous section we disagree in the amount of Racism and
related sufferings, so we can try to calculate the amount later.
[quote author=熱愛105°C的你
link=topic=127.msg777#msg777 date=1666954035]
I can't prove that I haven't encountered many racist behaviours
ingame. All I can "claim" (for myself) is, that most of the
time, people don't really write much after greeting each other
in a battle. Maybe sharing ones plan with other players. But
rarely have I received private messages about someone being
discontent about me. The forum I visited last time for Christmas
lottery.
For you it might be a regular occurrence, but for me, it's the
minority behaving rudely towards others, so I wanted to
understand your standpoint. That's why I asked and you already
gave me your answer.
[/quote]
I believe that you are right that in Random battles peopel don't
chat so often and it looks like minority is rude. But as i
explained earlier then those who are silent acts the same rude
way in next battles and that makes up in total of 100% people
being actually rude in their nature and supporting silently if
others are. Just make a dialogue with those silent people and
you will hear al lthe same opinions and behaviours that the
community promotes. They are all stats-minded and sooner or
later the discussion ends up by them saying that you have lower
stats and therefore should shut up. And that is racist of
course.
#Post#: 779--------------------------------------------------
Re: Term: racism
By: 熱愛105°C的你 Date: October 28, 2022
, 8:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"You say that you didn't comment a lovely racist message but why
you didn't then?"
That person is not here. Whining about his behaviour will not
make him think about it. What I could have added would be "his
behaviour in chat should not be tolerated", so that you know
that I dislike rude behaviour.
All I can do is to tell some players to calm down and focus on
the game "if" I spot these insulting remarks during the game and
then focus again. I'd rather enjoy the game than debating for
more than one sentence.
And yes, I am at least trying to not worsen the game
environment. You can even call me idealistic if I believe that
the majority of people don't disrespect each other in the game.
You can also use your "you are brainwashed" argument if you
want, since I might ignore some remarks that don't bother me,
but others. Everyone has differnt tolerance and everyone
complains about various stuff. For example I know a "heavily
pigmented" man who says that it's only racism if he feels
offended. He said he personally is not feeling offended if
people call him "****" so for him it's not racism. Maybe for the
other person it is. That's why I don't believe in general "stats
racism" as I wouldn't be bothered if people call me a "trash
player" and I also won't message him if I am above him on
scoreboard.
"[...] those who are silent acts the same rude way in next
battles and that makes up in total of 100% people being actually
rude in their nature and supporting silently if others are."
True, but at the same time (from what I speculate), people tend
to focus on their game more than trying to point out minor
violations in a chat. If someone says "CVs ruin the game", then
what would you rather do? Ignore and focus on the game (what I
do, because it's just the player showing his dislike for CVs),
or debate with him while being at least 90% certain that he
won't change his mind?
That was one example of things that I ignore.
In the next example, I usually tell people to calm down and
focus on the game: "You are retarded, uninstall the game"
Everything harsher than that I most likely would waste my time
writing more than one sentence to that person and would rather
just send a support ticket.
So you could say that I do let things slip. Didn't claim the
opposite.
"They are all stats-minded and sooner or later the discussion
ends up by them saying that you have lower stats and therefore
should shut up. And that is racist of course."
I am not sure about that claim. But then it could also be me
either not receiving many messages or you receiving too many. It
could also be that ranked environment is "much more different"
to random environment. There could be many reasons why I don't
see many complaints compared to you. So it's difficult for me to
see what you personally see. But you already talked about that
topic enough so I can understand your point of view to some
extend.
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