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       #Post#: 7540--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: guest32
       Date: August 24, 2014, 4:20 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       There is no reason to cause drama. If you dont like the way the
       clan is run then leave. There is no reason we can't all just
       have fun and enjoy the fucking game this clan was designed for.
       Put your big boy panties on or take your panties and go
       somewhere else! No matter what my status is I am sick of
       everyone acting like children. Grow the fuck up and enjoy the
       game with the people you used to enjoy playing with. Somehow
       this clan needs to have a structure to its 180+ members. I for
       one do not have the time to play the game and babysit this
       forum. I choose to come here to laugh with people that I have
       gotten to know since the beta and somehow this has become a
       place where drama must always be.
       #Post#: 7541--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: ta2dflip
       Date: August 24, 2014, 4:48 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       For the record, I am not trying to stir up the shit pot. People
       say things like "can't wait for the clan wars" then come here
       and start the interclan war, that's awesome. Some people want
       more rules and people like me want less to no rules. you can't
       blame the BoD for Similar and Cernig, even Cernig said that, he
       blamed another member, the same one that Similar would have
       blamed and to deny that shit is a lie. Straight up folks, there
       are some of you that like the drama, you feed off that shit. I
       was pissed that Cernig left, just like a lot of folks. I didn't
       know Tink, but learning what happened I felt threatened, "when
       was I going to have to defend myself against the BoD and how
       would that go down. Then I took a step back and came to this
       conclusion, I would never defend myself, my actions, or anything
       I've ever said to any member of this clan no matter how high or
       low you rank, you're not my superior. If you think the clan is
       run wrong, start your own and see how it goes, having people
       constantly coming to you crying like little bitches about what
       some other clan member said or did...are you fucking kidding
       me???? Someone wants to tattle on me, two words for you "FUCK
       OFF", end of story, and not regrets. I personally have made some
       online hommies that I happen to enjoy the fuck out of playing
       with, do they feel the same, I don't care, because we still play
       together, we still cover each others asses, and we still laugh
       at each others stupid fucking jokes. I like the forum because I
       get to keep up with what's going on in the clan, the game, and
       those that want to share and I get to share as well. Yes, people
       make valid points in some of the things they say and if the BoD
       wants to show that they value the members intake, then an open
       discussion needs to ensue, that's how shit get's done. Bottom
       line is the board is there to govern the overall activities of
       the clan, not to settle piss ant arguments. I've only had issue
       with one person  here and it's because he liked to stir up the
       shit pot and I started wondering if I was going to offend said
       person, I removed him from my friends list and don't fucking
       care if that violates any rules. I can't stop the drama here or
       anywhere, all I can do is what it takes to keep the shit out of
       my ears as best I can. In all honesty I had looked at starting
       my own clan because I didn't want to have to deal with the
       uprise in drama, then I had a great thought, make good with some
       of the people that are in here and play tanks...holy shit, what
       a concept. Someday, I might make my own clan and I would want to
       make it an affiliate of the OFF because I dig you cats, and am
       not looking to burn any bridges, but there are a ton of things I
       would do different. Well my dinner is ready so I'm out. Comment,
       kick me out, whatever, I'll still play tanks and I'll keep my
       friends list as is because I fucking can, end this thread and go
       play. Have a fantastic day people.
       #Post#: 7543--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: guest32
       Date: August 24, 2014, 5:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: ta2dflip link ---
       >
       > For the record, I am not trying to stir up the shit pot.
       People say things like "can't wait for the clan wars" then come
       here and start the interclan war, that's awesome. Some people
       want more rules and people like me want less to no rules. you
       can't blame the BoD for Similar and Cernig, even Cernig said
       that, he blamed another member, the same one that Similar would
       have blamed and to deny that shit is a lie. Straight up folks,
       there are some of you that like the drama, you feed off that
       shit. I was pissed that Cernig left, just like a lot of folks. I
       didn't know Tink, but learning what happened I felt threatened,
       "when was I going to have to defend myself against the BoD and
       how would that go down. Then I took a step back and came to this
       conclusion, I would never defend myself, my actions, or anything
       I've ever said to any member of this clan no matter how high or
       low you rank, you're not my superior. If you think the clan is
       run wrong, start your own and see how it goes, having people
       constantly coming to you crying like little bitches about what
       some other clan member said or did...are you fucking kidding
       me???? Someone wants to tattle on me, two words for you "FUCK
       OFF", end of story, and not regrets. I personally have made some
       online hommies that I happen to enjoy the fuck out of playing
       with, do they feel the same, I don't care, because we still play
       together, we still cover each others asses, and we still laugh
       at each others stupid fucking jokes. I like the forum because I
       get to keep up with what's going on in the clan, the game, and
       those that want to share and I get to share as well. Yes, people
       make valid points in some of the things they say and if the BoD
       wants to show that they value the members intake, then an open
       discussion needs to ensue, that's how shit get's done. Bottom
       line is the board is there to govern the overall activities of
       the clan, not to settle piss ant arguments. I've only had issue
       with one person  here and it's because he liked to stir up the
       shit pot and I started wondering if I was going to offend said
       person, I removed him from my friends list and don't fucking
       care if that violates any rules. I can't stop the drama here or
       anywhere, all I can do is what it takes to keep the shit out of
       my ears as best I can. In all honesty I had looked at starting
       my own clan because I didn't want to have to deal with the
       uprise in drama, then I had a great thought, make good with some
       of the people that are in here and play tanks...holy shit, what
       a concept. Someday, I might make my own clan and I would want to
       make it an affiliate of the OFF because I dig you cats, and am
       not looking to burn any bridges, but there are a ton of things I
       would do different. Well my dinner is ready so I'm out. Comment,
       kick me out, whatever, I'll still play tanks and I'll keep my
       friends list as is because I fucking can, end this thread and go
       play. Have a fantastic day people.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I couldnt have said it better. Discussion over!!!
       #Post#: 7544--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: Nahwasntme
       Date: August 24, 2014, 5:15 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       A couple of thoughts. I remember one being stopped in a corridor
       in an old job, this girl said to me  "but it's not the same old
       company it used to be", she missed the smaller more intimate
       place. My answer was "it has not been the same old company for 2
       years"
       And that's just it, organisation grew, they change. People don't
       want rules but without some sort of structure at least it cannot
       grow in any organised fashion.
       I remember the threads about setting up the clan I didnt join
       but I got a feel for it. How many joined at the start. And how
       many of those are left? What percentage of the clan do they make
       up now. Maybe the clan has to evolve and change to meet the
       wants of it present membership.  Personally i liked the original
       concept and that's why when I decided to join a clan I joined
       this one, but think there has to be some form of structure.
       I listed in one of the other threads about a guild I was in,
       that was drama, couples split , families not speaking, in the
       end I formed a guild with just one other person, it was the only
       way to be in a group and keep everyone happy .
       As an aside
       It is possible to write a thread saying how angry you are
       without  inserting 10 fucks into it. We are nearly all adults
       and should have that skill. No I am not offended , I spent 10
       years on warships, I have heard them all. I just think it makes
       the post more of a rant and less of a statement,
       #Post#: 7548--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: oxidative stres
       Date: August 24, 2014, 7:18 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Being one of the original members and officers, I think that I
       can bring a little perspective in on this thread.....
       This clan/ group has evolved and grown over time.  Is it the
       same as it was back in December/ January????? No.  Was the
       intention/ objective of the clan the same??? In most ways, yes.
       This group was formed to bring together older gamers....you have
       heard it all before... Did we originally start out with a whole
       set of "rules" no, but when a group is small then there is less
       of a need for that.  As we grew, there were a couple of issues/
       people that needed to be dealt with- team killing and abusive
       language.  Out of that the Admins and Mods ( that is what we
       were at that time) felt that there needed to be some form of
       code of conduct.  One was developed and those 2 individuals were
       asked to leave.
       We started to grow more and we faced many of the questions we
       face now:
       Reconciling the growing nature of the clan and the social vs.
       competative aspect of the members.  To help with this the group
       decided to start to look at forming companies, which were tied
       in to the type if gaming you preferred.  This is when the
       "Administration" side of things grew.  Greeters were added to
       help new members link up with older members.    Some other
       structure was put in place to help with clan business.  A number
       of things happened and a group of OFFers split and formed IHM.
       They had a different view on what they wanted out of a clan
       (size/ nature/ structure) and they started their own.  I have no
       problem with that and still regularly platoon with many of them.
       I am unsure who Cheesie was talking with? Organizations
       change.....Some form of structure must be put in place.....The
       people who wanted a small focused clan left.  To say that former
       members know what this was really all about is frankly...bull.
       These were the ones that left when the " social " clan got too
       big and was not what they really wanted.....NOT....they left
       because things changed from the early intent.  They wanted to
       change what the original intent was--- open to all.  Again, that
       is their right and I have no problem with it.  They left instead
       of turning the drama dial to 11.
       Yes the staff have a board where we can discuss things.  What
       the heck is wrong with that?  Many of the things that are
       presented to the group, like the membership freeze, goes through
       revisions before it us put to the group. Yes we have officers...
       So do all clans.  Cheesie, are you going to do the work?  We
       volunteer our free time to help this organization.  Do you want
       to run it as a Communist Collective?
       We are in the process of putting several things to a membership
       vote.... Membership policy...member rights and conduct
       policy.....more staff elections to include the now/ soon to be
       Sr members.
       If some feel I am not shooting straight with people, well, I am
       sorry.  I have a pretty solid track record here and am one of
       the few, current or even former OFFers, that have been here to
       help with guiding this clan since the very beginning....with the
       exception of Coffee/ Godfather/ and Robert.
       Small organizations can get away with "seat of the pants"....
       Larger organizations need some sort of structure and rules...not
       overbearing rules, but some nonetheless.
       This organization is not different in its original intent, those
       that left, left because they didn't want to be in a large
       inclusive organization.
       #Post#: 7549--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: faethor47
       Date: August 24, 2014, 7:37 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       That clarifies it for me. Thank you for shedding some light on
       what's going on.
       #Post#: 7553--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: cheesieburrito
       Date: August 24, 2014, 7:59 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I was asked by a Bod Member to clarify my general statement that
       the BoD have misrepresented what was going on.   I stand
       corrected,  MOST of the members have been stand up and
       completely honest and factual.
       Oxi,  I appreciate and understand rules,   sadly many of us
       forget our manners when we get wound up tanking,  but I also
       appreciate being dealt with in an honest and fair manner,  as do
       the rest of the membership.  The board member that violated the
       rules was not dealt with in any form,  if they were it was not
       publicized.
       I understand the membership doesn't need to be bothered with
       housekeeping issues.  but when I hear of back room conversations
       that lead to long time members leaving by choice or force it
       bothers me.
       So really unfair things were done to some long time clan
       members.......Whether I agree or like them is irrelevant.
       I did not seek out the folk for conversation,  but it came up
       and when the facts/other side varied too much from what was told
       here,  something is a miss.
       I don't expect this to be popular,   but it does need said.
       #Post#: 7554--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: Godfather 1965
       Date: August 24, 2014, 8:01 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Just an addition to what Ox has stated. As we were getting
       bigger we were also in direct contact with Wargaming. The first
       incident we had happened around the same time as these
       discussions were taking place with Wargaming. We thought it
       imperative that we form some rules to keep our noses clean with
       Wargaming at that time. I was not directly involved with the
       talks and to this day do not know what the talks were about but
       I had sense enough to know that it was probably something good.
       The absolute bottom line is this......Play the game "GAME" and
       have fun. Meet new people socialize and play either
       competitively or casually (your choice). I still have not had
       any issues with anyone that I have ran with or spoken to in or
       out of this game. It's not that tough folks.
       Take Care
       :palm:
       #Post#: 7556--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: Turkey Son
       Date: August 24, 2014, 8:26 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I have been here since the very beginning, and although I do not
       get to platoon much because my wife loses her mind when I am
       miked up, I have tried to contribute through this forum.
       I can say that I do not remember even hearing of any drama
       before Cheesie Burrito joined the clan.  And I certainly
       remember a time that everyone seemed to be having fun as opposed
       to being in angst over a game clan…I mean do we have proof of
       age before joining this clan?
       We all use the word “drama,” seems to have a lot of meanings,
       but I know what a “drama queen” is.  It is a person that is
       always in the  middle of the conflict…right or wrong…about them
       or nothing to do with them….but always there.
       Cheesie.  you are always talking about how “the problem is
       becoming clearer,” what fucking problem.  You cry the minute
       someone votes down your post, why do you care?  I think all your
       crying has made it into a game amongst a silent group that is so
       tired of your negativity and condescension.
       Well, I am not going to be silent about it, since you are so
       vocal and cannot just be a brick and mortar in the wall but must
       be the peacock sitting atop it.
       This clan does not inhibit anyone from having fun in the game
       does it?  How could it except that there is something terribly
       wrong with a person's perception of things?  What rules are
       making your life so terrible?  Why don’t you start your own
       clan, or would you rather run a clan and hire people to do all
       the tough work while you bark out orders and rebuke failure.….is
       that what you see OFF as?
       I have run teams in the real world my whole life, from 10 to
       1,000, and there are always drama queens.  They are always short
       on solutions, high on control, and can go off like a hand
       grenade at any moment.  They always like to nurture a little
       group to follow them and then they attempt to steer the ship or
       at least shoot at the rudder.
       To them, “the problem” will never be solved and there is no
       solution that does not have their name in it.
       The tell tale sign of a drama queen is always right there, right
       out of the mouth, the making of mountains from nothing, or to
       quote Cheesie, “this clan is in deep trouble.”
       Give me a break…This drama would be cancelled before the pilot
       made it to the screen, well unless it was on the WB.  Can we get
       back to talking about World of Tanks?
       #Post#: 7558--------------------------------------------------
       Re: All Bullshit a side.......what the founders, the real
       founders actually wanted
   DIR By: bluebanditjim
       Date: August 24, 2014, 8:36 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Organizations need structure and an essential part of that
       structure is a Chain of Command. Chain of command has to be
       respected. Staff and admins need to be able to do their job. My
       commanders in the US Army would not have tolerated jumping the
       CoC. Disagreements or concerns were always handled through
       procedures. A growing organization is  going to have growing
       pains. Leadership is a tough job. As General Patton said, "Lead
       me, follow me, or get the hell out of the way." It all boils
       down to a general idea of respect. Not the kind of respect which
       is followed up with statements like "I am going to do what I
       want to do," but respect independent of our own views and with
       consideration for other's views. Being expected to just tolerate
       someone's bad behavior, bad manners, or tasteless jokes violates
       the idea of respect. To the credit of many OFFers they would
       rather just look the other way in deference to tranquility than
       say something about bad behavior. That is how nice a group we
       have. They will simply and quietly find others to game with and
       maybe that is the way it has to be. I have a motto hanging in my
       classroom which reads, "I have the right to learn, but I don't
       have the right to interfere with other's learning." It could be
       adapted to our situation, "I have the right to game, but I don't
       have the right to interfere with other's gaming."  Drive on.
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